Growth Gossip

Michal Kus: Gossip podcast,
or we talk about grow

Romeo Man: with what exactly is growth?

You are going to find out.

What's behind this buzzword

Michal Kus: Hosted by yours,
truly me house of yolk, workspace,

and community, and crack out

Romeo Man: and meet Romeo.

Mine founded up Monday.

You're the man.

Michal Kus: Hey Romeo,
who are we talking to

today?

Romeo Man: Today?

We are talking with George.

He's the director of
marketing at Survicate.

They are a survey software for businesses.

Michal Kus: Um, marketing.

Okay.

So that makes sense.

If you want to grow, you're going
to probably need some marketing.

Where's George from.

Romeo Man: Yeah, he has a
really interesting story because

George started in sales actually
in the UK and north of UK.

Leeds.

You know, the city Leeds,

Michal Kus: Leeds.

I've heard of Leeds, but, uh,
yeah, I'm not surprised that

that's where he decided to live.

Since if you're going to do sales,
you're going to need some leads.

Yeah, definitely on brand.

If you will,

Romeo Man: from this enterprise big
corporation, he shifted to marketing.

He worked in different organizations
here in Cracow and actually

marketing and sales roles.

And now he's leading the 10
people team in , uh, quite a nice

company that is growing fast.

They are 40 people already.

Michal Kus: Romeo to confess.

I'm usually not a big fan of marketing
people and all that stuff, but, um,

I'm going to try to stay open-minded
and, uh, let's listen to George.

Let's let's see what he's got to say.

Romeo Man: Yeah, this will be fun
because you will be mind blown by what

actually marketing can do for Yolk.

Michal Kus: Oh,

nice.

Okay.

Let's get into it.

Romeo Man: Hey George.

Welcome to Growth Gossip.

Welcome to our podcast just to get
right into it because we know each

other already for some time now.

Yep.

Just for the listeners.

Um, and you are the director of marketing
for Survicate, and I like to start

these podcasts with the end in mind.

So actually with the final destination
of getting director of marketing at a

company like, like Survicate, can you
tell us a little bit what Survicate

is and what do you do at this company?

George Gavrila: Sure.

So

Survicate, I think very high level.

It's at the end of the day of B2B SaaS
for everybody out there, what we do is

customer feedback surveys for businesses.

Okay.

Um, and to your question, what
does the marketing director do?

Uh, I think first of all, it's worth
understanding what marketing does.

Selling a product or mass
or a group of people.

So you, as the director,
you're supposed to figure out

what's the best way to do that.

Romeo Man: Okay.

So me, how owns yolk, let's
say, and you have Survicate.

Why would a company or a community, a
workspace like yolk need a Survicate?

Yeah,

George Gavrila: absolutely.

So let's say the people could
come in here and work from here.

You want to know if they liked the
place, so you can drop a survey

to them to say, Hey, how would
you rate your from one to five?

And someone gives you a four
and then the next question can

be okay, what could we improve?

And they will tell you being, I don't
know, paying to the awards in pink.

Yeah.

Right.

So now you know what to do in order
to improve the user experience

because you have customers.

Okay.

All right.

So that's what certificate does
it offers surveys that businesses

can, uh, send to customers.

So then businesses get customer
feedback and then know what to do

to improve the customer experience.

Um,

Michal Kus: I'm curious, how
do you know which questions

George Gavrila: to ask?

Sure.

So there are a few questions that
are kind of standard, but it's

also you as a business owner.

Uh, you can ask any
question that you want.

So let's say you invest it into a
podcast facility and you want to know

if people like it and how to improve it.

Right.

Right, right.

So then your questions can be formulated
around this or the most standard question

in the industries, the net promoter score.

From a scale to zero to 10, how likely
are you to recommend us to a friend?

Right, right, right.

And pretty much everybody runs
a net promoter score survey.

And now you can go into the
employee net promoter score.

Like if someone works for your
business, are they happy working here?

Sure.

Um, so let's say if someone says
I'm not really happy, the next

question could be what could improve.

They could say, I dunno, uh, more
holiday days and they can figure it out.

They can make that happen or not.

Romeo Man: So, George, I suppose this
market is quite crowded because it's

not like, uh, who, who was the first
that on internet started to, you know,

promote a lot service survey monkey.

Right.

They were like one of the first

George Gavrila: yeah.

And to some extent Google
with Google forums.

Right, right, right.

Um, so yeah, the market is
very crowded and from my

perspective, that is a very good.

Because when you are in a crowded
market, it means the market is

quite big as opposed to be in a
market where there is no business.

Michal Kus: Plus it kind of seems like
it's to your plays, to your core strength

to find out what the market needs.

Yeah.

You could survey your own
market using your own tools

and your own experience, right?

Yeah.

George Gavrila: Yes, you can.

Sure.

Um, that is that.

So you marketing starts with customer
feedback and focusing on customers

because you are selling to people, right.

Um, and you don't sell to technology
or you don't sell to channels.

Everything starts with the human being.

Romeo Man: So yeah.

So you, as a marketing director,
you have this huge market

and there's a crowded space.

How do you do it?

So you get out of, you know, out of
all this noise, because at the end of

the day, it's a lot of noise there.

Can you tell us a little
bit, the beginnings of you

as a director of marketing?

What did you guys do to grow?

Because in the end we are talking here
about we're gossiping about growth.

And then I would like to understand
later on, how did you get here?

Like

George Gavrila: yeah, sure.

So I think, and this is advice
for everybody who's interested

in marketing or how to grow
their business, using marketing.

Um, the first thing that you want to
understand before doing anything is

what's the strategy of that company.

Um, because it's one thing.

If you work in a business that wants
to sell the business in a year, or

it's a different story, if you work
in a publicly listed company, which

needs to report to investors on a
quarterly basis or anything else, so

step number one, get the strategy.

And then get this strategy

Romeo Man: from the

George Gavrila: owners or from you need
to get the, you need to work with the CEO.

Okay.

To understand was the
strategy of that business.

Okay.

And when we say strategy to keep it very
simple, let's say we're in crack of now.

So our strategy for travel
could be that tomorrow.

We want to go torso.

So from all the places in the world
where we could travel, now we know

we go from point a to point B,
which is Warsaw, and this is the

clarity you kind of need to get.

Now that I need to, I know
I need to go to Warsaw.

My job is to understand and figure
out what's the best way to get there.

Do I go by train?

Do I go by car?

Do I hike?

Do I take the plane?

Right?

And it's the same in, in marketing,
you know, now how many customers or

what kind of customers buy when you are
supposed to get, and you can decide.

How to get them,

Romeo Man: but was this
clear from the beginning?

Did you know what type of
clients you guys want to address?

How to go there?

Because I suppose, um, it's
easy to say that, okay.

Let's have clarity, but in a,
such a crowded market, as you

guys are, it's pretty hard to
find your small little niche.

So how did you guys do that?

George Gavrila: Yeah, so it's, this
sounds very easy in theory, but

it's very hard to do in practice.

And the moment when you have the
strategy is when the strategy

is written down and shared.

If the strategy is just in someone's
head, but not communicated to a company,

you practically don't have a strategy
because people can't execute it.

So that's pointless.

So this took a bit of work.

I would say, uh, this year we are
the year where we have the clearest

strategy that we've ever had.

Uh, and where in the market?

Since 2014.

So that's like seven years and it
doesn't mean that before we didn't

have a strategy, but it was iterative,
meaning that we assumed that the

best way to go from point a to
point B was by doing something, we

try to execute that figured it out.

It was a good idea, or not in terms of
what went well, what could we do better?

And then figure it out.

Do we still stay with the strategy
or considering what we've learned

right now, we should be changing.

So I would say this is not,
uh, something that you will get

the right from the beginning.

Again, you have to be prepared to
change, like even on a straight

road, you are still at the wheel and
you are supposed to still move the

wheel cause otherwise you'll crash.

Right?

Yeah.

Michal Kus: Uh, I'm curious if,
uh, when you say strategy is.

More of a direction or is it very clear
KPIs that you're going after or does it

depend on the client and their needs?

George Gavrila: Yeah, I will say KPI's
out even further down the road because

KPIs is how well we execute on something.

So let's say if we stick to the example,
traveling from crack of torso and

let's see if we chose a car, your KPI
could be fuel consumption, but you've

already, already made that decision.

You chose it in the same way
in marketing would be that you

want to grow by doing paid ads.

So the KPIs apply at paid ads level.

Like are we making a profit compared to
what we're spending and stuff like that?

Romeo Man: So, I suppose you do this
with a team and before the whole

conversation, uh, before we started
the record button, you were telling

them that you had three people.

Now we have 10, you change
the whole structure.

Can you tell us a little bit,
how, what did you change?

How did you structure the team?

Because this is may also important for
people who would like to join companies

like Survicate and be in such teams.

So we understand a little bit what
competencies are needed, right.

And how does the, how you map the
competencies that are needed in

your team to the actual strategy
that your company has and your, uh,

actually role as a marketing team to.

Deliver

George Gavrila: that strategy.

Yeah.

Right.

So I think there are two things here
that are practically two questions.

So I think the first question is how
did we change our marketing structure

to support the company growth?

So the first thing to say is that
certificate is now a company of 42 people.

We're not 500 people or a thousand people.

So if you are going to be in
that kind of a company, you

might do the different thing.

So practically we are what
you would call a scale-up.

I would say before that we
are a, we were a startup.

So when we were in startup mode,
marketing was much more experimental,

like trying a lot of things, um, to
figure out what can work and what doesn't.

Once we figured that out, we
knew two or three things that

we really wanted to do well.

So we decided to specialize the market.

So, for example, now we have a team that
looks after a content NSU, which means

if you type something in Google related
to customer surveys is certificate

going to show up on the top position.

So that's the job.

And this thing does only that if we cannot
show up organically in Google, maybe

we put, uh, we pay and we show an ad.

So there is a team that
works only on paid ads.

Uh, there is a team that connects the
whole marketing with the product team.

So if the product team releases new
functionality, marketing needs to know.

So that's where, what we call
product marketing comes in.

And the fourth team is, um, what we call
the creative team, which is pretty much

it design and coding because to execute on
all the other channels, you need assets.

So pretty much we have
like four big pillars.

That kind of came in
from our experimentation.

And we decided that, okay, these
are, these are safe bets on which

we are feeling confident to invest
on because we've seen that working.

So I

Romeo Man: look at it as a, you
know, a kitchen and the restaurant

with the kitchen, maybe at the
beginning, you had, you know, uh,

cooks that can only do breakfast.

Right.

And then you realize that, okay,
we are, we need also to specialize

in brunch, lunch and dinner, but we
cannot use the same cooks too, that are

specialized in breakfast, the dinner.

So maybe we can, uh, I get some

Michal Kus: guys for,
yeah, I see it differently.

I see it sort of like if you're, if
it's a team and it's either they're

playing football or basketball
or whatever, and you need to go.

Yeah.

To, to fill that role, you need somebody
on the offense to fill that role.

Uh, you need the defenders to, to
sort of, um, support, well, both the

offense and the defense, the goaling.

And

Romeo Man: so he, he meets sportsy guy.

George Gavrila: Uh, the only thing
that I say is that in the beginning

you need someone or you need the
people who are there initially

to be able to do a few things.

So if we go with the cooking analogy, you
probably are going to have someone who

can cook breakfast, dinner, and lunch.

They're not going to do a three
star Michelin, but once we figured

out that your restaurant sells
the most at dinner, you kind of

say, okay, let's focus on dinners.

So then you get someone who
can really do dinners, right?

And you can have the other person
just focused on the other two.

Romeo Man: Got it.

So, um, when you, when we think about
competencies, I suppose, for the

listeners, so if I'm applying for a job
for such for certificate, I really need

to understand if, do they need me to
make breakfast, lunch, and dinner, or

they want me to do only dinner, right?

George Gavrila: Yeah.

To some extent.

Romeo Man: So how do I find out this?

How do I know, uh, w this company at
this stage, what kind of people they

need and if I am a fit this team.

George Gavrila: Yeah.

Okay.

So the first thing you need to understand
when you apply for a job is that that

company really wants to hire people.

So when you go into an interview,
those people, that interview,

you really want to hire you.

They are not your enemy and the
best favor that they can do for.

Is to not hire you and put you in the
wrong job, because that will be very bad

for you and very bad for the company.

Um, secondly, in the job description,
you should do a realistic assessment.

If you can do that job and not try
to just, you know, go over the,

uh, fence and wing it, because
that will all go into a disaster.

The best thing you can do, especially
when applying, I will say for

startups and for scale-ups is to
explain to that company why you

specifically want to work for them.

So if someone demonstrates passion that
they work for certificate, and it's

not the same application, they send
to another 50, uh, companies, that's

like a massive plus, uh, and let's say.

If you feel you don't hit the competencies
of that, uh, uh, job it's okay to be

upfront and say, look, I might not
have the experience in this areas.

Uh, because one thing that you need to
be aware of in startups and scale-ups

is that things are very flexible.

So a company this nimble can
simply create another job or give

you some opportunity that is not
yet, uh, uh, past posted publicly.

Romeo Man: So, uh, at my
agency, we also hiring a lot.

And what we see is there are
two categories of candidates.

We have the categories of
fresh graduates, right?

Like students that want to
go into, into marketing.

And also you have the category
of corporate as we are in Krakow.

There are a lot of, uh, BPO
like outsourcing companies.

And what's really, what's a BPO BPO.

It's a business process outsourcing.

So basically let's say Electrolux
does a, I'll say accounting.

They did accounting in all different
countries of Europe, and now they want

to centralize it into one location
because it's more streamlined.

So they, they create their own
internal BPO in Krakow where they can

hire all different languages doing,
let's say finance into one location.

So that's, let's say an internal
BPO because they don't outsource

it to an a third party.

So let's say cap, Gemini will
be a third party and they

would do, uh, the same finance.

But not for them internally, but
for some like, uh, another client

like electronics, let's see.

So this in ecosystem creates really
good, uh, in my view, um, professionals,

when it comes to processes, uh, when
it comes to project management, which

I, uh, we as marketers, at least as
agency we need, but that there is

no marketing knowledge there, right?

Like, so there is a lot of process
knowledge and project knowledge,

but there is no marketing knowledge
also with the students, right.

So we have really, uh,
smart youngsters, uh, like.

Learn super fast.

You know, the information is rolling
much faster than it was rolling when

I was a student, um, has the, they
are amazing when it comes to picking

up information, but no marketing.

So can we go back a little bit
because you worked in corporations

and now you're hiring also students.

So can we talk about this topic?

Where, how did you get into, into,
into marketing from the enterprise,

right from the corporate world, how one
gets into this whole marketing world?

George Gavrila: Yeah, sure.

So I think in very simple terms,
um, I started actually in sales.

So I've been in sales for about six
years before jumping into marketing.

And the way I got my first sales job
was that I was actually in the UK.

Uh, and the company there needed someone
who speaks Romanian to sell into Romanian.

So I got hired mostly because
of the language skill.

Okay.

In other words, I started financial
services and I graduated in the

financial financial crisis in 2007,
which was a terrible time graduate.

So I had to just choose another
career and give it a go.

Romeo Man: You finished the UK, right.

I finished the UK.

George Gavrila: Um, so I, I just looked
at what skills I have that I could put

on the market, despite the university
skills, because that was a totally no-go.

Um, so I think, I guess the first
advice, why do you say that?

Because in 2007, there was
the financial services.

So everybody from the
industry was getting laid off.

So it was pretty much
impossible for graduate to get.

Um, or at least I couldn't do it, but that
was a documented, uh, issue on the market.

So, you know, time goes on, you need to
pay the rent, you have to work somewhere.

Uh, so pretty much I figured out that
I could actually, you know, what, what

do I have that not a lot of people
have in the UK, my language skill.

Right?

So get an entry dropping in debt, which
is more than enough to keep you going.

So fast forward, like six years I in
sales, I made it up to like head of sales.

So I've, I've got to a
pretty senior position.

Um, and then I switched to marketing
because I was in a company.

I was supposed to do sales,
but I didn't get leads.

So I started to figure it out.

Where do I find these customers to sell.

So then I figured out how do I sell to
muscle group of people at the same time?

What does marketing?

I didn't even figure it out that
I'm doing marketing at that point

for me, just like came naturally.

And then I figured out like, okay,
I'm building a website, I'm trying

to drive traffic to this website.

Um, my sales, uh, people
are getting better leads.

The term inbound marketing
was coming into fruition.

I was like, well, I'm doing this.

Like, I, I, I'm not
calling it in my market.

I don't have a name for
this, but this is marketing.

Um, so from sales, I jumped into
marketing and I would say from

there it's history, I think the most
important thing to understand is that

in sales, you sell to one human being,
but you're still selling to a human

while in marketing, you are selling to
multiple human beings at the same time.

Without having the dialogue, because
when someone's on your website, you

don't talk to them, but your knowledge
around how humans function and the

human psychology and what people expect
and the laws of influence are there.

Um, so I'd say in marketing, if
you had customer service sales,

anything, human relations, uh, uh,
experience, any psychology studies.

So anything that helps you understand
how humans behave and what you can say

or do to change that behavior in a way
that you want also known as buy from you.

That's like a superpower

Michal Kus: is a lot of
it sort of emotional.

George Gavrila: It's both because
the brain is emotional and rational,

but it starts with emotional.

So first of all, it's like, you, you want
it, but then you justify it with like,

And I think in B2C, it's more emotional.

You scroll on Facebook, you see a
pair of shoes, you click buy, you

don't need approval from your boss,
or you don't need to make sure that

the shoes feed other five people.

Well, if you see a piece of
software, someone has to approve it.

Other departments need to use it.

So you have a tick box list, but if
I would be advertising, I will try to

anticipate what's on your tick box.

And I will make sure that what's in
that advertising makes it extremely

easy for you to tick those off the list.

But

Romeo Man: just to go back to
how you got into marketing,

did you do some certificates?

Do you think that this is needed?

Did you read some books?

Like if I work in corpo and there
is someone listening here working in

corporate book, like to join marketing,
You know, even in university, even in

university, even in, uh, you know, uh,
corporal, we, we all get this feedback

that, you know, you need certificates,
you need diplomas, you need all

these paper before you get a job.

Did you, did you need that?

Do you think is needed?

What's your opinion on that?

George Gavrila: Um, so when
I hire, I don't look at that.

I think the best thing that you can have
is, so I hired on three things is mindset,

skillset, tool set starts with mindset.

So, because I think if you, if you are
really determined and you're passionate

about working in a certain place, you
can then go through a skill gaps and

you will do what is required to fill
in skill gaps and stuff like that.

While if you are very skilled,
but not motivated or not really

passionate, not bother to be.

That's that's something
that's much harder to change.

So the number one thing is, is
the mindset in terms of skillset.

It's really helpful if you've done that
thing before, doesn't matter if you

went to school for it or not, but you
know, if this would be cooking, your

test would be, you know, if you cook a
three-star Michelin dish, I'd hire you.

I wouldn't probably ask you
where you learn to cook.

Romeo Man: You have a certificate.

Yeah.

George Gavrila: Um, I think it goes down
to being able to actually do the job.

So if a certificate helps you do that
or not, I don't know, but I don't

see how you would get hired in a job
where you're supposed to do things

just based on a piece of paper.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Romeo Man: Why do you think,
like, I'm also curious because

I did the same shift, right?

Like, uh, we worked, uh, in the
same enterprise for some time.

I worked in DHL, in electronics, different
corporations, and then I made the shift.

Uh, and for me it's definitely the
biggest, you know, advantage is the,

the amount of, um, information I get in
marketing and how fast I grow and how

many, uh, new things I learn in a month
compared to when I was in enterprise.

So my question to you would be, if
you would have someone in front of

you and would need to convince him or
her to join, uh, you know, marketing.

So to, to, to give up the
enterprise, let's say, why

would they, why would they join?

What would your.

George Gavrila: I think, first
of all, I wouldn't pitch them.

Like if they don't have this desire,
I wouldn't try to create it for them.

Romeo Man: Let's say they
have this desire to join it if

George Gavrila: they have it.

Um, from my perspective, I think the
best foundation that you can get is

a combination of like three things,
maybe two, um, I think reading a book

can't be replaced by anything else.

So because it gives you the full
story is not just a blog post or

it's not just a post on Twitter.

You get to understand the deeper
perspective is like, when you go and see

a movie bot, you've read the book you
are going to enter in that movie with a

much wider, deeper understanding of the
world and everything that's happening

in there rather than seeing one hour
and a half and having a very shallow.

Okay.

So I think books do this for you.

They require some effort.

They are not the most
easier to consume format.

You have to read and
they don't have pictures.

It is just texts.

Yeah.

Michal Kus: It requires a lot of patience.

And just for you to really be able
to focus on a single topic for us.

Yeah.

George Gavrila: Yeah.

And they are a time investment at the end
of the day because they are not expensive.

So you

Romeo Man: would recommend before
answering why you should join marketing,

you would recommend them to read the
some particular books in marketing

to understand the deep meaning of it.

And if this is for them.

Yeah.

George Gavrila: I mean, before you
joined marketing, if you can't answer

the question for yourself, what is
marketing probably you should enjoy,

or you shouldn't make that decision
and you should have enough clarity that

that's what you kind of want to do.

Um, I think.

I remember how I got into university
and I didn't make a university

choices based on my future career.

And a lot of people just don't just
get soaked in into something that

sounds cool or trendy without having
a real idea of what that means.

I will say the true university and
education of someone never ends.

And I think the thing I think
when you actually are in a job,

especially at the beginning, if you
compare it to a university where

maybe you have to pay to learn here,
you're getting paid to get skills.

So it's like your perspective about
thinking of work is not, I need

to go to the, the job I'm already
skilled and I'm going to do this for

my own, for the rest of my career.

It's more like I'm in a place where I can
grow and develop and I'm getting paid.

That's already awesome.

It's like 10 steps ahead of
everything else while I'm here.

Um, I get to learn in the best way
possible, which is by practice because

from the outside, you can be like learning
to drive a car just by reading the manual.

And nobody learned to
drive a car this way.

You have to get in the car, you will
feel uncomfortable and you will suck.

And that's the curse of, of,
of learning is just natural.

So if you have someone to kind of
coach you and hold you by the hand

and not throw you in the middle of the
ocean, when you can't really swim, and

that creates a really bad experience.

And then although you maybe could
have been good at that job because

you haven't been developed correctly,
you're now, um, having a limiting belief

in your head that you can't do that.

So I think if you're early in your career,
You have to be more focused around and

aware of where you are and not compare
yourself with a veteran that has been

there 15 years and drops guru quotes on
a LinkedIn and saying, I want to be like

that because you're, you're very far from
a, that's not your, you're not dead yet as

Michal Kus: I'm, uh, maybe this is sort
of off topic, but as I'm listening to

you talk, you, you like, in my mind when
I'm thinking of marketing now, uh, I'm

thinking of it more as a science, that
someone who has these marketing skills,

they should be able to market anything
because it's somewhat of a process.

The same way science is a process, right.

Which is also constantly evolving
as you're collecting more

data and new theories arise.

Um, so first of all,
would you agree with that?

It's somewhat of a science
and skill set and it's uh,

George Gavrila: yeah, I think it's.

The evergreen thing in marketing that
never changes is the fact that at

the end of the day, you have to sell
to people, the psychology of human

beings and how human beings operate
hasn't changed in thousands of years.

So my, my advice of someone who wants
to get into marketing is to learn

the evergreen skills first learn the
people skills on the science part.

We're talking about how
were doing marketing, right?

So right now it's a lot of digital
and it's a lot of science and

some channels are a lot of data.

And sure, if you want to be a paid
ad specialist, you need to be able

to analyze the data and understand
which of your ads are working,

which are not and stuff like that.

But when you ride the ad that
shows into Google for someone to

decide if they'll click on it or.

That's all human behavior and psychology,
which is almost, it's not science, but

say it's backed up by science because
you can get an AP test and you can start

with the hypothesis that is formed on
your best guess based on knowledge.

So it's an educated one, which
it is a lot to do and yeah.

Okay.

You can have data to back it up
or not, or take it from there.

But I would say it's both, I would say
you have the evergreen people stuff

and you have the super fast changing
technology or how, how to market and

what's available, which is changing
all the time, which it's okay to

learn, but also be aware it's changing.

Uh, so for example, print ads, right?

Print ads or huge when the
internet was not here and everybody

was reading newspapers and all
the ads were in newspapers.

Now that moved online.

Right.

So that.

Uh, craft anymore, or you used
to get in your mail at home in an

envelope ads that kind of disappeared.

Romeo Man: Yeah.

So all these ads, uh, made the world
think that, you know, marketers are evil

or liars, or there's even a book about
this, you know, set golden, which is

one of the, uh, one of the best known
marketers out there wrote a book about

it, saying all marketers are liars, um,
which is actually talking about, uh,

how to make your story more authentic.

And don't, you know, look like
you are this spammy marketer,

but what do you think about this?

Because this is, this is, um, The the,
the bad side of the, of the marketeers.

And if we talk to people, uh,
out of this sector, when you tell

them I do marketing, they're like
some of them look at you like, and

Michal Kus: to be honest, I'm one
of those people, when I hear the

word marketing, I'm just thinking of
somebody like the M and a marketing

stands for like manipulation and
just throwing money at a problem.

And, uh, I, I don't know that
that's, as I grew up for one reason

or another, that's sort of how I
was, uh, uh, programmed in a way.

But, uh, so I don't want to go
too far away from, from what you

were saying, but at the same time,
there's this other word that has

sort of popped up, which is branding.

And, and could you also sort of discuss,
first of all, this, this sort of, uh,

Atmosphere around marketing and positive
negative, but also how it relates

and where it diverges from branding.

George Gavrila: Sure.

Yeah.

All right.

So, um, then negative feeling around
marketing, and I will say also around

sales it's because of the bad practice
of, uh, sending someone stuff they

don't need for the sake of justifying,
justifying, uh, marketing, but,

and th that has been a lot of it.

And a lot of it has been
spammy and it's still spammy.

Um, however, from my perspective, the
right way of doing it is, is like this.

So, um, let's say.

I'm coming to you and saying,
look, I see you have this problem.

Uh, I have a solution for it.

Let's discuss it.

And if it turns out that you
don't need it, that's fine.

But at least you got understanding
that you don't need it.

You explore this position.

You are now more educated and probably
know better what you want and the

fact that we didn't make business.

That's totally cool.

So instead of being spammy and intrusive,
it can be helping, um, and educational,

Michal Kus: right?

Because in a sense you're sort of
providing options and potential

solutions, which maybe they're not
right at that particular moment, but

it also gives that potential client,
that person, uh, just sort of a broader

perspective of what's available on the
market and maybe what's right for them.

George Gavrila: Correct.

And from a marketing perspective,
Well, if you have a solution, you

have to think like, who has this
problem and target your message to

the people who have this problem.

Or let's say if I have a renovation
company and spam everybody in marketing

in a, in Krakow with my services, that's
probably not going to be a good idea.

A lot of people don't need the service,
but if I will look like for example,

uh, which businesses are growing
and are in the old building, because

chances are these people are going to
have the budget and are going to have

the incentive to renovate their space.

Okay.

So then I would send my
message only to these guys.

What do you

Romeo Man: educate these guys on
different, the needs to renovate

if your business is growing?

Right.

George Gavrila: So, first of all, I
would position my business, not as a

renovation business, I will say under
innovation business for startups, I don't

know very buildings, so they are cool
and hype to attract the right candidates.

So then I would mark it to you in a way
that, Hey, if you did, you know, if you

renovate your office, uh, the quality
of your contacts or interviews, uh,

increased five times and here's a study to
prove it, or employees are going to stay

longer and be happier in your business.

If the environment is better
and back it up by proof and

this for you can be helpful.

Romeo Man: And this helps you with
your brand, which was the question.

George Gavrila: So if you, if you
genuinely help people and then let's

say you hired me and I do a good
job for you and you're happy, and

you are actually getting the results
that have been promised to you.

So, you know, we do
what it says on the tin.

Then what are you more likely to do?

You are going to probably talk
to your circle and say, yeah,

I know what innovation company.

Uh, they are cool.

They did this for me and it worked

Michal Kus: and

George Gavrila: they weren't pushy
about it and they wouldn't push it.

They weren't inspire me.

They were educational.

I felt safe and good, um,
throughout the process.

Uh, and the fact that you
recommended me, that's branding.

Yeah.

So branding is the, is
the sign of quality.

Yeah.

As your reputation that's I would call
it reputation is the best word for it.

Yeah.

And that can be good or bad.

Yeah.

Michal Kus: Um, as you're talking about
this, I can't help, but think about

my own personal journey as a, here
at York, uh, workspace and community,

obviously we needed to market it.

We needed to sell it.

And I always felt so, um, in the
beginning, especially, I felt so

uncomfortable in that role of, of,
of trying to, to, to make the sell.

But, uh, Over the past two years that
I've had experience meeting with people

who come off the street or whatever.

And they're just sort of interested in,
Hey, I don't want to work at home anymore.

Uh, maybe it'd be nice to have a desk
around other people and stuff like that.

Um, over time I've sort of seen myself
transitioned from someone who's just

saying, oh, we have this feature.

We have that feature.

We have this, uh, meeting room.

We have, our desks are like
this, our coffee is awesome.

And instead of doing that, I just sort
of present the space, just sort of give

them a tour and say, Hey, I think it's
a lot more of what you started off in

the beginning was with that survey.

So really, as I'm giving them a
tour of yolk, I'm really trying to

find out what is their workflow.

What's important to them and
trying to see how our space as

it is currently can, uh, match.

Uh, in harmony with how they work.

Right.

And, uh, once I'm able to sort of
make those connections for them,

it's pretty obvious for them to say
like, yeah, this, this, this place

might be a good fit for me, Evan.

There's like no selling involved.

And, uh, it's just like, Hey, I
think this could work for you.

Let's see if

Romeo Man: it could work.

I suppose that was much more comfortable.

Michal Kus: Way, way more comfortable.

Yeah.

Because no longer do I feel like someone
who's trying to push something into

something that somebody might not want,
you know, especially now during COVID

where a lot of people are a little
bit more anxious because they may be,

they haven't been around people much.

So me being pushy and especially them
being more sensitive to, uh, anxiety and

stuff like that was obviously a big no-no.

Right.

But now we're just kind of seems like.

Let's let's see if this is a good fit.

Um, yeah.

H has sort of been this nice organic
thing and it really works well, I think

with our branding because, uh, w us
trying to sort of support and cater,

uh, whoever comes into our space.

George Gavrila: Yeah.

I think, um, it's, it's, it's a two
way street in this conversation.

It's also important that, you know, if
you're showing the space to someone and

you can kind of think, you know, that's
actually not the right space for you.

Yeah.

Um, it's okay to not get them
as a client because then they

will come in not be happy.

And then they will tell others
that I haven't been happy there.

So this is a two-way street
conversation, and you kind of

want to make it work for the.

Michal Kus: Absolutely.

Yeah, because sometimes I'll get
people who come to us and let's say,

there's somebody who is constantly
on the phone, constantly doing calls.

And I just know that our space isn't
outfitted for, for people who are

constantly on the phone, especially
people with big booming voices.

And, uh, I just sort of tell them
straight up and I just kind of say, Hey,

you're welcome to come for a free day.

But at the same time, I don't think
this is the ideal environment for you.

George Gavrila: Yeah.

And this is an awesome example
because now you, instead of being

a space that sells to everybody, so
being everything to everyone, you

are very good for people who are
appreciating a quiet chill environment.

And this is your audience, and this
is what people here appreciate.

Right.

And knowing that.

On your website.

That's your main message.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Coworking spaces for quiet people.

But as opposed to saying, because you
could also be coworking spaces for loud

salespeople, our offices are soundproof.

We have all everything for these guys.

Sure.

Right.

So by selecting an audience is not only
that you are getting the people who

serve the most, which is good for the
business, but you're also limiting the

time wasted with people that from the
beginning, they're a bad match, right?

Romeo Man: Yeah.

Yeah.

But still, why do you think
companies don't do that?

Because there's still a
lot of spammy marketing.

It's still, um, you know, this,
this audience segmentation

that you mentioned, right.

Like let's segment into the sales
guys and then adapt to that.

Still companies don't do it.

Right.

Is it harder?

Is it something that, uh,

Michal Kus: uh, Can I answer that
question and you tell me if I'm right

to me, it just sounds like short, short
term thinking, you know, cause they're

just thinking about how to make that
sale, uh, how to get that revenue.

But they're really not thinking down
the line of, um, what's going to be

my relationship with this client.

Is this client going to come back to me?

Uh, I don't know that
that's, that's my impulse.

George Gavrila: Sure.

Yeah.

That's one of the reasons, so
one of the reasons is what's

the business strategy, right?

So if you want to be on the market for
the next five to 10 years, you care

about the reputation and the brand.

If you are going to want to be in
business for the next six months,

maximize your profit and then close
the doors, you know, you're more likely

to engage in dark practices, which are
definitely not good dark practices.

Yeah.

There is a dark side to everything and for
sure there is a dark side to marketing.

Um, like down the right people can be
tricked that the product does something,

you buy it and it totally doesn't do that.

It was like, I guess that's the darkest
practice you can, you can, you can

have, um, so yeah, I think to Romero's
question why companies don't do it is

because companies skip the strategy.

Step companies go like, because
every company wants to grow.

Right.

Okay.

So they say we are going to grow and they
are then jumping on the best way to grow.

They say, okay, let's hire a
content person, write some blog

posts and drive some traffic.

However, what's the traffic
that you want to drive.

Are you actually driving?

The the right traffic.

So, because you didn't spend time to
figure out who are the people in the

market who like your, your product or
service the most, you didn't document it.

You didn't write it down and
pass it to this marketer.

So then they will know what to write and
how to actually give you those people.

This marketer will just do their
job in general and chances are,

they will bring a lot of people
that are going to buy be unhappy.

It's not going to work with

Michal Kus: and just sort of distract
you from, from where you want to be.

So a sense as a business,

George Gavrila: slow you down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

Romeo Man: as a fresh market here,
would you agree with the sentence

that says life is too short to work
for a CEO that doesn't understand

George Gavrila: marketing?

No, I don't agree with that.

I think I know it's
popular now to pick on CEO.

Uh, that they don't get marketing
or they don't get sales or

they don't get whatever.

Um, but I think a CEO can know everything.

I think, as a marketer, it's kind of
also your job to do some education

there and bring something to the table.

You

Michal Kus: need to
market proper marketing.

George Gavrila: Yeah, exactly.

I think you can explain to a CEO, uh, what
your perspective is, and if you are not

on the same page, I don't know if that
person gets marketing or doesn't, but

the clicking needs to be, can I be at the
same on the same page with this person

when it comes to marketing topics, if that
happens, and that can be the CEO saying,

look, I don't know much about marketing.

I clearly see you're an expert.

I don't want to be.

And that's fine.

So the problem becomes a problem
when you are trying to do your job.

And then I guess this isn't a job, your
boss comes in, doesn't really get what's

going on and tries to tell you what to do.

Michal Kus: Right.

And they kind of cut your

George Gavrila: wings and yeah.

Yeah.

And they send you in the right direction
because in voluntarily, because

this is the best for your business.

Um, but this doesn't necessarily
have to be marketing.

This is like in any career.

Um, obviously if you have, I will
say if you have a CEO that really,

really gets marketing, then.

Meaning, let's say they
are a marketer themselves.

You also might have issues as well.

So I don't think the commonalities
here is gets, or doesn't get marketing.

It's like, can you be on the same page
with this person and work as a team?

Yes or no, and this can
be extremely difficult.

And the best example that I had the other
day was, uh, like being in a band, like

being in Beatles and trying to write
a song as a, as a band and you having

some creative ideas and John Lennon
tell is telling you they are not good.

And you're having to tell
him back, they are good.

Right.

So it gets to a point where you
need to have enough respect and

kind of not kill each other for.

The stakes of elevating the quality
of work and not taking it personally,

at some point, this can become too
much and the brand, the band breaks,

and then you're all going to have solo
careers, but your songs are never going

to be as good as you did together.

And that's the same thing here.

Like you need to have the CEO that you
can have enough confidence to be able to

tell what you think and be able to tell
when you see things that are wrong and

it needs to be a two-way conversation
rather than, uh, a seniority thing where

you just get overwritten and you don't
have that communication channel going on.

Yeah, because

Michal Kus: at the end of the day,
the CEO did hire you to do that job.

And you're supposed to
be focusing on that.

They're focusing on other stuff.

George Gavrila: Yeah.

Yes.

Although you shouldn't just because
there is a coin, there is a part of

the coin of this that is correct.

Like that person can totally make your
life a nightmare while at the same

time pulling the company in the ground.

So when you interview for a job like
this, the interview is a two-way street.

It's also your job to assess if
you want to work for that company.

And this is part of it, like what's the,
how is the working relationship going

to be with your new boss in any job?

Uh, how are you going to react if I'm
going to be not agreeing with what you're

set, if you tell me to do something and
I prove it to you with data, that is

the wrong idea, what's going to happen
and we're going to change your decision.

And if you get no, and if you feel like.

This is a very hierarchical type
of organization where we have

a boss that gives directions.

Maybe that's not the type of organization
that you are, or maybe you would love that

because there are people who like clear
directions and initiatives, and maybe you

are that kind of person and that fits.

Yeah.

And

Romeo Man: you were talking
about the band breaking and I was

thinking about the failures, right?

Because marketing is a
lot about failures, right.

Because what is it like we come up
with some ideas with some experiments

and then we go out in the market
and we try to test it right.

So how, how do you deal with
failures and how do you, uh,

how do you talk to your team?

Because sometimes, you know, if
you're a fresh market here, it

can be very demotivating, right?

That you work and it happens, right?

Like, yeah, six months we work on
a campaign and it's a total mess.

Like not on campus, no results.

And I need to go back to the team.

I need to go back to the CEO.

I need to draw the conclusion
what happened here.

Right.

And that's marketing at the end of
the day with bunch of failures or,

George Gavrila: yeah.

So on failure, the way to deal with
failure in the healthiest way is

to think of it as being learning.

But to think of it as being
learning requires energy because

we as adults learn by reflecting.

So it means like, okay, we've done this.

We.

Instead of blaming or moving
to the next thing, set up the

time to think and reflect.

And when you do the reflection, basically
you have to split it into two things,

which is what went well in this campaign.

And what is it that we could do
better next time when we execute this.

So then when you mop this things out,
you will have an understanding, uh,

and you're also going to download
things from your soul and mind.

So your stress levels will decline,
um, and will bond as a team

because you're doing this exercise.

And it's like, part of our
journey is to get better.

We have to understand what
we didn't do that well.

And you've documented this, you
have this understanding next

time you're going to do that job.

Chances are you're going to be more
successful because you understand that.

What maybe cause failing.

Michal Kus: And of course reflecting
is a good thing to do, even

when things do go well, correct?

George Gavrila: Yeah, exactly.

Because then you cannot acknowledge them.

Uh, and that's, you know, that's a goal
that you want to protect, and this is

knowledge that you want to train someone
coming into the business from get-go.

So they don't have to go for all the
errors that you have to suffer through.

Um, so that's why you split
it always into, you know, what

went well, what could go better?

And then you have both, both

Romeo Man: sides of it, but you
need to afford to fair, right?

Because it's budget it's
money at the end of the day.

So if six months you wasted the money
and you know, then you failed, uh,

you need to justify that somehow.

George Gavrila: Yeah.

Um, this part is more about a process.

So first of all, We shouldn't go for six
months without reviewing our performance.

We shouldn't have, uh, you know,
uh, performers is not a birthday

that is celebrated once per year.

This is something that you probably
need to look at at least on a weekly

basis when you launch something.

Um, so I would say when it comes
to this sort of bigger project

messing up, it's also a matter
of how the project from a process

perspective has been, has been set up.

And what methodologies are
we supposed to work on?

Or should we start working on, like, I
dunno, the widow's crumb do we do stand

ups every day for five minutes before
we start the day to kind of look at what

yesterday went well, instead of someone
getting blocked today, but you are

going to talk with this person only two
weeks or for two weeks, they do nothing.

Uh, so I think this is a lot of process
work that needs to happen there.

And when you say.

Seeing that things might not
work out is working with the CEO.

And I kind of explain, look, we don't
see this going in the right direction,

as we assumed, should we keep going?

Or we take another direction straightaway.

So as a rule in business, the only
thing that I don't like are surprises,

I would prefer not to have surprises
are all, and typically surprises.

Most of the cases can be
negative, even positives.

Like you would kind of want to know
you're going in the right direction

because then you can accelerate that.

Um, so yeah, I will say there's
the part of process that can limit

this and find the methodology,
apply it, stick to it, adjust it.

It can save a lot of energy.

Romeo Man: Yeah.

Before we end.

And I think learning
it's a good way to end.

So could you give us some recommendations?

And also to the listeners that would
like to join marketing branding,

um, this whole world that you're in,
how do, how should they get started?

What are the books that need to be like
on every bookshelf or in every Kindle?

George Gavrila: Okay.

I think, uh, short, good and awesome.

Is, is the 22 immutable laws of
marketing by Al Ries and Jack trout.

So this will explain in like 50 pages,
I would say it's maximum two hours book.

Oh, um, short marketing from a
very high level, 10,000 feet.

Okay.

And then the next thing by the
same authors is called positive.

Which is the first thing you should do
after you get the strategy, which was

about, instead of being everything for
everyone, we are something for someone.

So in your case, it was, we are the
working space for people who enjoy

quiet, cozy environment, perhaps.

Yeah.

Perhaps just making a topic.

Yeah.

So yeah, I will say, start with
this too, because this will give

you an idea of what's marketing.

It will give you an idea
of marketing strategy.

Um, okay.

I

Romeo Man: read these two books.

What's next?

Like what

George Gavrila: should they, yeah, I
think the next you should read at least

one psychology book to understand people.

And for sure, I would say
influenced by Cialdini.

Okay.

Is the number one to read and then the
skill that you would need in marketing

the most, regardless if what you're
going to end up doing is the ability to.

Which is called copywriting.

Okay.

So in copywriting you have two
schools, you have like classic

copywriting and modern copywriting.

So I think in classic copywriting,
you have breakthrough advertising

by Eugene is rods, which is absolute
masterpiece about house to car to get

you kind of have to hunt it on eBay.

Um, and I think on the modern one,
I would probably say everybody

writes, I forgot the author.

And uh, Hey, Whipple, squeeze this.

Romeo Man: Oh, that's
also very good creative

George Gavrila: book.

Yeah.

So I think you should kind of, once you
had strategy, you understand people,

you know how to write from there.

I would say the next decision
is to choose your channel.

Like, do you want to learn paid
ads or do you want to learn.

Uh, organic.

So meaning mostly kind of writing
blog posts and ranking organically.

Do you want to learn social media because
you want to be able to execute on the

channel unless, you know, the other parts
that the channel is just the tip of the

iceberg, and that's kind of a trap that
people in marketing go, they just jump

the strategy, the psychology part, the
positioning part, and they just choose

the channel first, you know, um, and
you are, if you're just stick with the

technicalities of the channel, without the
deadness of marketing, you're not going to

be able to execute a well on that channel.

Someone will have to do
that other work for you.

You are just going to be
like pushing buttons based

on other people's directions.

You're not going to understand why and
what you need to change, but if someone

tells you that you will know what buttons
to press in the system to make that.

Romeo Man: Great.

It's a really great way to end with,
with this, with these learnings.

Michal Kus: Yeah.

I learned a lot and uh, I
feel better about marketing.

George Gavrila: Yeah.

Why do you think it's awesome.

It's you know, if you've done ethically,
like anything else can be very useful.

If done unethically can be a very
dark art, that's extremely annoying.

Um, and there is this like saying
like, uh, people read what interests

them and sometimes that's an ad.

True.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's the point.

You have to be useful and helpful.

Romeo Man: Thanks a lot, George.

Thanks a lot for this, uh,
one hour of pure content and.

Uh, a huge overview of

George Gavrila: marketing.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Bye.

Wait.

Oh,

Michal Kus: what did you take
away from this conversation?

Romeo Man: Oh, I, I really liked
this analogy with the cooks.

You know, I'm a foodie.

You said your, I, I

George Gavrila: totally

Michal Kus: felt outnumbered
here between you and George.

Cause you guys were both focused on
restaurants and food and all this stuff.

Yeah.

Romeo Man: So that, that was interesting.

Like we were saying that, okay.

At the beginning of startup,
my need, someone who can do all

types of marketing activities, but
later on, you need to specialize.

And if you want to join a, an
organization as a student, Um,

professional in incorporate, and
you want to just shift your career.

You really need to understand at what
stage this company is at to actually

understand what, how you can contribute
and what competencies you need to develop.

I really liked

Michal Kus: how he sort of outlined like
these different, uh, fields of focus.

Um, and for me, like I kind of now see
marketing as somewhat of a science,

which was something that I brought up
and, uh, you know, w where you sort of,

you, you take in your data, you maybe
you form a hypothesis and then you go

out into the world and, and you test
that data, um, in the, in the proper

form to see if it makes sense or not
even probably if your marketing strategy

works, if your campaigns work, then I
guess you could scale it up after that.

But, but right now I see it
much more of a science and.

Then simply just throwing
money at a problem.

Romeo Man: Yeah.

And it's also, George knows how to
explain marketing in a very simple form,

Michal Kus: even I can understand it

Romeo Man: now.

Yeah.

So that's, that's pretty nice because,
you know, in marketing you can get

super flooded with all the acronyms and

Michal Kus: yeah.

And did you notice how many
times he talked about human?

Like at the end of the day, you're
a marketing to a human, like,

that's something that I could

Romeo Man: appreciate.

Yeah, definitely.

And it's also about learning, right?

Because you, you do a lot of
failures in marketing and actually

those failures are learnings and
we as companies, we as individual.

We need to make sure we
document those learnings.

So we don't do it again.

And this is super important because
if a company, um, you know, make the

same mistakes over and over again, that
investment that they did in those learning

slash failures, they are just gone.

Right?

Yeah.

So this is, this is really good.

And also the books that he recommended,
the, this idea of, okay, before you

specialize, you need to know how to
write, write, like writing the, the

basics of, of marketing, not like
how to make super sexy video ads and

you know, some analytic data stuff.

No.

Like learn humans, learn the
psychology and learn how to write for,

Michal Kus: right.

I also really appreciated the
fact that he talked about you.

Don't just market to everyone.

You you're really sort of focused on
your core groups or personas and you

do like smart marketing in a sense.

And, uh, which I think sort
of enables smart growth.

All right.

That, that was a great interview.

I really appreciated George, uh, having
him here, uh, from the very first few

seconds that we got to say hi, I had
a, I don't know, just a good impression

of, of, or intuition of, uh, that he
might be just a great person to talk to.

And my intuition was right

Romeo Man: at least this time.

And it's good to have people in the,
in the studio rather than on zoom.

So much better,

Michal Kus: so much better.

Thank you for listening.

Gossip was recorded at Gulf
workspace and community.

Romeo Man: If you enjoyed
listening, please give us a share

Michal Kus: or review on apple
podcasts or wherever you listen to

Romeo Man: us.

See you next time.