Growth Gossip

Michal: This is the growth gossip
podcast, where we talk about growth

Romeo: with what exactly is growth?

We are going to find out.

What's behind this buzzword

Michal: hosted by yours, truly, Michal, of
yolk, workspace, and community, in Krakow

Romeo: and me.

Romeo Man founder of MAN Digital

Michal: you're the man.

Hey Romeo, who we talking to today?

Romeo: Hi, Michal, how are
we are talking to Sonny?

He is the CEO of, uh, it
recruitment company in Krakow,

actually one of the biggest IT
Recruitment companies in Poland.

And he's originally from the
country of beer, which is Belgium.

What do you think we're
going to talk about?

We will talk about actually a lot
of things, because Sonny has a

lot of experience when it comes
to the recruitment business.

He worked in a lot of international
organizations in Dublin, in Tunis,

in Budapest, and he set up, uh, an
international branch for recruitment

company from Dublin in Krakow for
years back, started his own business

here and grew it from three to over
60 employees in just four years.

Um,

Michal: I'm really curious what
he has to say about candidates,

uh, sort of differentiating them.

Uh, in this huge job job market,
especially it developers,

which are so hot, as we know.

And, uh, I'm also curious about, since
we've been going through this pandemic

for what, the past two, two and a half
years, I don't even know how long, how

this has affected, uh, the workspace
and the offices as we knew them.

Pre pandemic.

Romeo: Yeah.

So let's dive in,

Hey, Sonny, welcome to growth gossip.

Nice to see you here of the long time,

Sonny: Great to be here

Romeo: You know Michal that I
applied to one of Sonny's jobs?

I have no idea.

Yeah.

Like, uh, when I started my agency,
uh, I was looking for clients.

So one of the tactics I
had was to apply for jobs.

And how was it Sonny?

Like how was the interview?

I think I offered you a job actually.

So seven years ago.

Yeah.

Seven years.

Seven years ago.

Time flies.

Yeah.

But the

opening was nice because
we started the interview.

And what did I tell

you?

Remember

Sonny: the first thing that you told
me was that you actually were not

looking for a job, but you were helping,
let's be looking to, to help me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um,

Michal: was that part of your strategy?

Yeah, it's like, it's a
thing that I heard recently.

If, if, if you want money, ask for advice.

If you want advice, ask for money.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know if you guys have heard

Sonny: that.

Yeah, it was.

I think it was, it was a great approach.

Right.

Um, so

Romeo: you, Sonny, I, I always say
to people that you are the guru

of it recruitment here in Poland
and the Wikipedia of, uh, beers,

because you're super passionate about
beers, you're coming from Belgium.

So, you know, just to have the
stereotypes straight with beers.

Right.

Um, so we would like to discuss today
a bit more about your story, you

know, why Poland, how Poland, how
you're growing your, your agency or it

recruitment agency, and actually how
you, you got here, you know, the, the

journey at St and squeezed journey.

Sonny: Okay.

So long story, short rights, um,

I think it's like 17 years ago when
I was 16 years ago that I was living

in Belgium, small city country,
country sites, um, had some issues

with the girlfriends back then.

And I did as every
responsible man would do.

I left the country thinking, okay, I'm
going to go away for six months then come

back and then everything will be okay.

Right.

Um, so that's 16 years ago.

Um, how's that,

that was the last time I saw her.

Um, um, Applied or submitted my
CV back then on a job portal.

I don't even know if
they still exist monster.

Um, they used to be huge, but I
don't know if they still exist.

Michal: Was that more of
a north American American

Sonny: thing, or I think it
was a European thing as well.

I think they were bought by
one of the big companies and

now you don't see them anymore.

And I kid you not five minutes later,
I got a phone call from a company in

Ireland and, um, they were looking
for, it was a Friday, uh, two o'clock

and they were looking for, um, a Dutch
French speaker that could start on

Monday because they just lost their,
um, their, their accepted candidates.

Um, the next Monday I started in
Brussels for a six week training.

After six weeks of training,
I went to Dublin, still in my.

I'm still thinking that it
would stay there for six months.

Um, and then I really enjoyed it.

Um, from there, um, I grew up in the era.

I grew in the company and what
was then pretty much involved in

all the mergers and acquisitions
in, for the Irish company.

So I lived for five years in Budapest,
one year in Amsterdam, two years in Tunis.

Um, and then five years Dublin.

And in 2015, I was approached by
another recruitment agency in Dublin.

Um, asking if I would be interested to
set up their first international location.

Hmm.

Uh, I accepted, I accepted the job
and after some research, I decided

to set up a company in Krakow.

Um, two years later, things didn't
work out as we thought we'd work out.

Um, I left and then basically for three
months I was thinking, okay, what's next?

Um, will I join a new company?

When I go back to corpo,
realized, start my own business.

And I was lucky to have some
friends with a bit of money.

And that's it.

On the 1st of September, 2018, uh, we
started initiative idea recruitment

with, uh, three or tutors and myself.

Um, we grew to around 10
recruiters by March, 2020.

And then the pandemic happens
and the first six months, I

didn't know what would happen.

I already thought four months
that we would go belly up.

Uh, we lost 80% of our business,
all the sexy San Francisco

startups stopped hiring.

Um, um, but by October, November,
uh, 2020, we noticed that actually

the economy was picking up big time,
uh, much quicker than the UK and the

U S where most of our clients are.

Um, and that's where we are today.

Now we are 65 employees today.

Wow.

44 around 45 in out 20 in Roswell.

Um, and still growing.

Um, we are hiring.

So we can say that

Romeo: you, you guys are like one of the
biggest ITT companies in Poland, right?

I would

Sonny: say one of the
biggest ones in Poland.

However, I don't think that says much.

Um,

Romeo: it's still, I mean, from, from
2000 you started with three people, right?

When does an 18, 2018 and now, you
know, becoming one of the biggest

it's it says something, but I want
to go back to two crack out, because

you said that you researched for
this other recruitment agency.

Where to go, right?

Like you are like, okay.

We, I suppose you had a bunch of
CPS within centuries in Europe.

Uh, but you chose a city which is not
a capital city at the end of the day.

I'm just curious.

What made you, what made
you guys choose crack?

Sonny: Well, back then there was like two
or three cities where we were planning

to go or that we were looking into.

First one was Lisbon Portugal.

The second one was Budapest Hungary,
and the third one was, uh, Krakow.

Um, Warsaw was never.

On the books.

Um, both the goal was the
scar is quite quickly.

Um, it's a great city.

I would still probably prefer
to live in Lisbon, above

Krakow, especially in winter.

Yeah.

Um, but, um, the recruitment agencies
live at, uh, uh, to reel off the

demand for software developers.

And there is just not that
much demand in Lisbon.

I got it.

Yeah.

Um, so the recruitment agencies work
best in cities where there's way more

demand than supply basically economics.

Um, so lesbian boss was off.

Pretty quickly.

Although I have to say we are probably
going to start up in Lisbon this year.

I see.

Um,

Romeo: but it's a bit, how do
recruitment agencies make money?

Sonny: Um, recruitment agencies
make money by filling a gap

between the supply and demand.

So, um, I T I T uh, sorry, uh,
software companies, um, need people.

There's a worldwide shortage of people.

They cannot find the people themself,
job boards don't work anymore.

Uh, LinkedIn doesn't work anymore.

Um, so you need people that really
go to people to say, Hey Romeo, I

have a great opportunity for you.

Do you want to hear more?

Romeo: So basically it's like sales guys.

Sonny: It is, it is 100%
sales and not, and not only.

In one direction as a car salesman,
sells a car to a potential buyer?

No, it is.

It goes two ways.

First of all, you need to sell the
job to the candidates, but then

also you need to sell the Candace
to your clients, the hiring company.

Um, so this is basically how, how
recruitment companies make money.

So recruitment companies do
best in a shortage of talent.

Okay.

Michal: Hmm.

But you just said that
job boards don't work.

I mean, what's wrong with looking
at endless and endless lists of

names and CVS and stuff like that.

What's

Sonny: wrong with this?

No, severe is there.

There's just endless, endless list
of so wanted software developer.

Yeah.

And usually recruiters are not the
best content writers they write.

Wanted software developer,
what kind of software is this?

Java JavaScript, biotin.

Um, if you, if, if you're, if
you're a software developer, why

would you even open the link?

If you don't even know if it is something
for you and then you, and if you open it,

it usually starts with our client comma.

A multinational company, coma is
looking for best talents, coma working

on great products for their clients.

Romeo: How, how is the alternative,
what would be the better version

of the same job description?

Let's see.

You could

Sonny: start for example.

Hey, we are, we are y'all are the,
uh, Kik as coworking space in Krakow.

We need somebody who can.

Cleanup or lousy website.

Sorry, I don't know how you look
left at look like, but yeah.

Um, we need a kick as developer
that can clean up our lousy website.

So more conversational, more
conversational immediately saying

what they will do, what w what will
be their contribution to the project.

And, um, I think there's a couple
of, um, attributes that companies

need to have now to hire talent.

There is the flexibility nowadays that
became become more and more important.

The flexibility in the
contract style or the location.

I think that's why, um, coworking
spaces will have a good future in,

um, and just have a good future.

Um, It makes way more sense not
to have the flexibility in how you

scale and where you base your people.

Don't expect that a software
developer will go back to

the office five days a week.

We now have here in the same
street, we have 45 employees

and we have maybe 18 desks, but

Romeo: I'm wondering, like we, we talk a
lot about developers and I feel that they

are very spoiled at the end of the day.

So, uh, you, uh, and I boldly can
say that mainly because I see a huge

discrepancy between, you know, Uh,
um, professionals working in Corpus,

which go through very strict rules and
contracts, um, or any other professionals.

Right.

And just because the demand is so big
for developers companies, you know,

just, uh, close their eyes and, and
do whatever, you know, it's asked.

Um, do, do you think this huge
discrepancy, uh, will affect and

will impact negatively the whole, uh,
workspace and call, uh, you know, uh,

labor market at the end of the thing?

Michal: Like, are you asking,
like if we're in a bubble in a

sense and in terms of how, how
good developers have it right now?

Romeo: Yeah, sure, sure.

I mean, I think, I think there is a
element of risk on long-term even in terms

of, uh, Um, some of the software house
owners told me of mental health because

they live in a totally different bubble
compared to the difficulties and the

problems that other parts of the society
have, and companies keep, uh, spoiling

them with, you know, choose your own
laptop, uh, uh, come to work whenever

you want to work from wherever you want.

And then you have the other side, you
know, on, on, on corporate level where

you have, you know, you need to log in at
nine o'clock and then you need to do X, Y,

Z tasks, and you get a shitty, uh, laptop
that needs to connect to VPN and connect.

And you're annoyed that it's an, you
know, developer will say, you know what?

I cannot work like this because
the VPN is not connected.

I'm talking about a huge discrepancy
also in the way of working.

Sonny: Does have this luxury, right?

Um, it is true.

Like the top 10% of developers are now
paid the same as any developer in Europe.

There is no cost arbitrage
anymore, or, um, between for

example, Netherlands and Poland.

And this is mainly to
do because of the B2B.

Um, first of all, the B2B is
a huge contributor of all of

this in, in, in Poland, lean a

Romeo: bit B2B for the listeners.

Sonny: The bit a big contract is basically
a similar to an employment contract, but

instead on the labor law, it is under
civil law and there are significant tax

benefits by using this style of company.

Um, there is less protection under labor.

You don't pay social security.

You do pay, you do pay a social
security, but you pay less income tax.

Okay, good.

Yep.

Um, and from a, from an
employer perspective, you don't

pay employer contribution.

Good.

So there's a significant, um, cost
saving for both the employer who doesn't

pay employer contribution and for the
developer who pays less income tax,

um, in a lot of European countries,
there's a lot of measures against.

So if, for example, in Belgium
where I'm from, it's not possible

in the UK since last year they
introduced , it's a regulation to

avoid this kind of tax optimization,
uh, not to use tax avoidance.

Um, in Poland, this is used by probably
60, 70% of all the software developers

in the markets, and it won't go away,
but this also has costs that's it.

And especially because the pandemic,
what everybody is working remotely now.

So a couple of months ago, I got a phone
call from an American software company

from San Francisco, and they asked if
we will be able to find soft bite senior

Python developers for $150,000 per.

Um, I said, of course you can, I, you
shouldn't even pay this kind of money.

Um, because if you pay a hundred
thousand, you're already paying

20% more than what it was here.

12 months ago, the issue is the moment
that you pay, for example, $150,000 to

a senior Python developer in Poland.

From that moment, every senior
park developer will expect the

same because they know somebody
who is earning this kind of money.

So that is one.

So this around 10,000, uh, around,
uh, slightly over $10,000 per month.

Um, and these are quite normal salaries.

Now in the market we are working in,
um, you could say, is this ridiculous?

I don't know.

Why would.

Why would a software developer
input earn less than a software

developer in the UK or in Belgium?

Um, PornHub, you might've heard
of them, uh, Romeo, um, they are

they're Canadian and they believe
that they, um, you should, it

shouldn't matter where you're based.

They're paying Canadian
salaries to wherever you are.

Very

Romeo: progressive.

Sonny: Yeah.

Um, I, it makes sense.

So are they spoiled?

I don't think so.

Does, should everybody expect the same?

No.

So there is a steep learning curve to.

Damn good software developer.

Romeo: Yeah.

Nevertheless, the, my saying
I'm saving lives, right?

So this is where we see the discrepancies
of, um, in the market and yeah, of

course it's a free market in a way,
not well-regulated in a sense that

you can do cost optimization and
that's why you have such a high costs.

Right.

Uh, but then the doctor needs to pay,
you know, all those taxes that are

optimized in a way by the developer,
just because the demand is there.

Right.

So

Sonny: yes, it's very hard for
a doctor to work 100% remote.

Right?

So companies hiring Poland are not
competing with Polish companies.

They're competing with American
companies and English companies

looking for the same towns.

So a software developer.

And Poland's can earn exactly
the same, uh, in Western Europe,

because he is doing the same job.

He is just lucky that he
can do this job from home.

It's very hard for a doctor to do
surgery in the UK, from home in Kelsey.

Romeo: True, true.

But let's go a little bit
into the other rules, right?

Because, um, you, you know, very
well what these companies need, um,

both soft skills and hard skills.

Um, and our listeners are
either professionals working in

corporations or recent grads.

Um, and.

They would like to understand, okay.

In 2022 post, I w I could, maybe we could
say post pandemic, um, with the craziness

that is happening now in, in, uh, in
Ukraine, how is the China, uh, how is

the market impacted and what are those
competencies, both soft and hard that are,

um, that that companies are looking for?

Sonny: Do you mean the impact
of the current situation of

grain on the current market?

Um, Hmm.

If you would have asked me two days ago, I
would say probably it's going to be huge.

Do this later.

I think it's not going to have a
big difference for Poland and it's

only three hours away from here.

We have a couple of clients
in the states that are more.

Concerned about hiring people
in Poland, because for them,

Ukraine is only the size of Texas.

And if you're in New
Mexico, that's quite close.

If you look at the big map of the
states in Europe, it's a huge country.

Um, so we, we do have a couple of
clients that are more concerned

about hiring more people in Poland.

On the other side, we have a lot of
companies from again, from the states

and, uh, mainly from the states with teams
currently in Ukraine and in Belrose that

need still to have their business going.

So they are now looking at people
in Poland to a replace the people

that they are losing in Ukraine and
Belarus, or to move them to here.

So I think it will balance out.

Um, again, the people that we are
working with are highly skilled

software developers, and there
is an unlimited demand for them.

The thing, the impact will be more
on blue collar hospitality that

you could see a bigger impact.

Not in there, not in marketing, not in

Romeo: digital.

Okay.

Got it.

Got it.

And when we think about soft skills and
hard skills, like in today's world, how,

how did that change since you are in
Krakow, since you started this business,

what, what are companies looking for now?

Sonny: Um, I think now if you're young
and you want to get into business or

you want to start, I think it's best to.

Learn the general, the general
part of what you want to do.

For example, if you want to, if you're
interested in marketing or you want

to do marketing, learn the general
aspects of marketing, but then pretty

quickly specialize in one thing,
specialize in SEO, specialized in ads,

specializing content, writing, um,
social media, but don't be generic.

There are plenty of people that
are doing the generic stuff.

Um, you mentioned before we
started the recording, you were

talking about project managers.

I think project management is the
most generic term that you can use.

It says nothing about
what you're able to do.

Project management and
Watts in buildings or in.

Application development.

Michal: Romeo, are you seeing a
pattern because I'm seeing a pattern?

Cause it seems like earlier when you
were talking about job boards and

what a better job listing looks like,
it's, it's a, it's a listing with

personality with individuality and,
and right now, as you're describing

somebody sort of evolving their
career, it's sorta the same thing.

Individuality personality, you,
you it's, it's a unique groove.

It's not just the same old, same old.

Yep.

Sonny: Um, in our world recruitment,
it's very hard now to find the tutors,

as you can imagine the cause if everybody
needs software developers who can

find software developers idea careers.

So, um, there's a lot
of RPO organizations.

So group with both organizations.

Generic recruit
recruitment in the markets.

Can you explain a bit, so, um, for
example, to give you an ID, um, Nike,

Nike, the oldest shops in the states
that the employees of the shops in the

states are actually recruited from,
or at least the used to be accrued.

I don't know if it's still the case
are acquitted from here in cracker.

Okay.

So we have Polish corridors on the
phone with people in the states.

Hey, Michelle, do you want to work
in Nike and the Nike store in LA?

So this is, um, quite specific
role for a specific brands.

However, a lot of dos recruiters call
themselves recruitment administrators

to, to hide that they, they like
to do everything which is around.

Except the recruitment itself.

Okay.

Romeo I'm Sony.

Do you want to have a new job?

Well, there is a preference of, Hey
Romeo, congratulations with your new job.

Can we now fill in the papers?

Romeo: Okay.

Got it.

So it's more like afraid of
selling it, but posts, selling,

uh, administration work,

Sonny: right?

I think, and I might kick to a lot of, uh,
uh, kick a lot of people here, but I think

sales is not the strongest part of money.

Polish people.

There's this, if I need to
sell something Southeastern

Romeo: Europe, I think it's not
yet into sales because of the

Sonny: Um, so I think that's why
there's a huge opportunity for

people that want to do sales.

Romeo: And you see the
recruitment the same, right?

Like at least this is how I see it.

I always compare it with marketing, right?

Like you or the, the, the pushy marketers,
the spammy marketers, the, the, those,

those, uh, tactics that, uh, make the
stereotype like me, I was saying in

one of the other episodes that, uh, he
feels that marketing it's a little bit

too pushy and spammy, and you are afraid
of marketers at the end of the day.

And I suppose developers are the
same with recruiters sometimes.

Right?

Because you, you have a
similar tactic, but okay.

You're selling a job here.

It's a little bit different.

So what, what you're saying is
that it's hard to find those

recruiters that know how to tell
the story, they know how to sell it.

So how, first of all, how
do you find those people?

How do you train those people?

Um, and what are those skills that
you try to develop within, within.

Sonny: I once hired the waiter
of probably the most famous

steak house here in Krakow.

And I wa I was, I was having dinner
there and we were so impressed with

how the waiter was serving us and the
service and the English and upselling.

Okay.

At the end of the meal, I
gave him my business card,

said, call me in the morning.

He called me in the morning
and the next day he got hired,

Romeo: um, no, not this video.

The restaurant,

Sonny: they see hospitality is
not known for their, uh, for

their grades employment contracts.

Um, so we have in our team,
we have journalists, we have.

People that used to work in restaurants,
people that used to work in jeans

stores, and we have teachers.

If you have the time to
develop your people, I believe

it's better to develop them.

If you bring somebody in from other
organization, you're also bringing

in part of their culture and their
culture is not always what you need.

Yeah.

So sometimes we get approached
about, Hey, we are a team of

four recruiters in this company.

We want to leave.

Do you want to take us?

That is a very dangerous practice to do
because then basically you're bringing

in the sub team in your organization.

And I think company culture is overrated.

Um, Because company culture is
the, um, is the sum of all personal

opinions of all your employees.

It is not something that you can bring in
with employer branding, employer branding,

super important, but it is not the
end, all of how you can bring in towns.

Yep.

Um, so I think you need to find a balance.

How can you, um, bring in a lot of young
eager people that want to do the job?

How can you find the
people that can teach them?

Uh, and it's a very hard balance to find.

Michal: Um, I can't help, but
when I look at your website and I

look at the about us and I see a.

Uh, just photos of your, uh, your team.

I can't help, but notice how
many women are on your team.

I don't mean to go into stereotypes, but
is there something unique about women?

Do they have a better talent in terms of
building relationships and tell them in

terms of storytelling or more empathy,
that that helps them in that role?

Sonny: I think maybe the truth is that
recruitment is considered HR and HR has

traditionally been a job for a woman.

And it's, it's, it's, it's a,
it's a, it's, it's a stereotype.

If I could have a good balance, 50, 50
man, along with that would be great.

But for a lot of men being
a recruiter is a woman's.

But I, I would certainly not say that
a male recruiter is better or worse

than a, than a female recruiter.

Um, I think it's more, again, the
historical background of center Europe.

For example, in, in, in the
UK, there will be a much higher

percentage of men in equipments.

There will also be a much
higher percentage of women in

software development in Poland.

It's still today.

Very hard to find women in tech.

Is

Michal: it about 10%

Sonny: or 10%?

And I think that's even on the high side.

Yeah.

If you, if, if you includes,
uh, project manager, Um, UX

UI designers, test testers.

Yes.

But pure software development.

Go there.

You won't reach 10%.

Romeo: Do you have clients that
are specifically telling you,

look, we want to make a balance
and we want to hire more women.

Yeah, there

Sonny: are.

But you need to set
expectations immediately rights.

Yup.

Romeo: Um, and is this H how does it look
like, do you, can you put it in a job

board or, uh, that, Hey, we are you, you,
you, you cannot really do that, right?

Sonny: No, I don't think so.

Nope.

Same for hiring for diversity
in Poland is still today and

2022, a very hard thing to do.

Romeo: I see, I mean, at least in,
in our organization, what we, we

have a very, uh, LGBT Q community,
uh, in, uh, in my organization.

We are, um, there are more
women in, in the organization.

Uh, but what we do is that we let, uh,
their personality be seen on the website,

meaning that, uh, each one of them,
when we are presenting them in the about

us page, you know, we, we tell them,
Hey, Um, present yourself as you want.

And if you want to put the LGBTQ
flag, the rainbow flag, uh,

whatsoever put it because we want
to show even to our clients, that

this is a, a diverse team and this
is, this is what we, what we want.

And this, this way we can also
open up and say, Hey, um, we need

diversity at the end of the day.

And I

Sonny: think this is still more a
challenge in Polish organizations

than in international organization,
like American UK companies.

They, they are very open for this.

Romeo: So let's go back a bit
to the soft skills, right.

Because, um, do, do you, do you think
that in terms of, um, soft skills,

is that something that you would
like you organizations want to teach

or they already want you to have.

And I'm also, I want to ask
about the hard skills, right?

Um, is it, are the companies investing
in, you know, skilling you up so that

you can, even though, you know, you
don't have those hard skills, but maybe

you have super, um, nice soft skills,
your emotional intelligence, so on

and so forth, but you don't have that.

The hard skills.

How is this balance between, I think

Sonny: the more senior it gets, the
less, the less chance there will be that

the, they will change your soft skills.

If you're a software developer, one of the
best in the world, 15 years experience.

Yeah.

Top 1% in Java development companies
are not going to hire you for

instance, Um, I think it's more
important for, for young people.

Um, people that are just starting
Gratz, interns, they're, you can S

there, you can still do a lot with them.

And that's why on a side note, that's I
think why the, the, the whole pandemic and

working from home had the biggest impact
on interns and graduates companies didn't

invest in these profiles anymore because
they couldn't have them next to them.

Um, so organizations, if they couldn't
bring in the grass and the interns in

the office, they'd rather didn't have to.

So you have basically a whole generation
of two years, that was neglected in.

How to grow up in a company.

Um, and I think that that's what, this
will be a challenge in the future.

Um, and for these people.

So if you would ask me as a
grad, as an intern as just from

school now, what do I need to do?

Uh, um, if you're in, in, in
science technology, again,

specialized in something.

And on the other hand, go to
an office, talk to people, I

think, listen to podcasts, read
books, um, hang out with people.

Don't expect that you will develop
from a junior to intermediate from

home by being behind your computer.

It's all about the social
interaction with people.

Um, so.

Specialized and hang out to people
as you grow up in your career and you

get more senior and you are recognized
as a specialist in what you do.

Okay.

If you then work more from home.

That's great.

Does that make sense?

Romeo: So you are saying that the, the
recent grads or neglected, um, why is this

like, are companies afraid to, you know,
work with recent grads that work remotely?

They don't, they don't trust
the employees what's happening

Sonny: and there's a perception
that it takes more time that it is.

So they rather have the people that they
have working on what they need to do then

do work then to invest in young towns.

Um, so we are running an academy, uh,
once every three or six months where

we are bringing in six, um, Juniors.

And we train them up from scratch.

And after one month, two months, they can
start working from home already, but still

the teams are coming in to the office.

They decide when, and if they don't
want to come, that's also fine.

But at least there's the
opportunity to meet again.

This is why I think co-working spaces are
going to be so important in the future.

Companies are not going to rent for five
years prime office space that nobody is

using, but rather having a flexible model
in a coworking space where you can say

we take, then I don't know how it works.

Uh, the desks memberships day passes
or, or day passes, and the team

meets once every week, once every
two weeks in the Couric space.

I think that is.

Where the future is.

Romeo: Yes.

I suppose the waiter that you
hired, you know, he didn't know

anything about recruitment, but
he had this huge social skills.

You took him to the academy, hard skills
were there, and then you can, off you

go, you can, you can recruit, you can
talk to people because that's the,

that's the main idea of the wrong, right?

Yup.

Michal: Uh, I obviously I'm sort of
biased in this, but as I hear you talking

about workspaces in terms of the physical
workspace, um, would you agree that also,

um, so the, the layout or the function
of a office is also evolving into it

being a more flexible, a more, um, sort
of a collaborative space and instead of

your sort of traditional cookie cutter
desk, desk, desk, desk, desk, kind of a

Sonny: space we are occupying
for apartments industry.

And we have, we are using the four living
rooms as living space, kitchen couches,

people are working, they prefer to
work from those couches rather than the

desks that we have put in the bedrooms.

So yes, it is more collaborative,
like cubicles are done.

Yeah.

Michal: I mean, uh, at our space at
yolk, um, I'm sort of, I come from

a, somewhat of a UX UI background.

So for me, it's just, ah, I love
watching people enter our space

or our clients, our members.

I love seeing how they're using
this space, the way that we planned.

And I also of course, loves seeing
them use this space in ways, which we

did not foresee, but they're sort of
creating new ways of using the space.

And, uh, but what I can't ignore is.

If you have a more flexible, more sort of
collaborative space that really encourages

and supports friendships to develop.

Uh, I noticed people
just laughing more often.

I feel like, uh, their mood is
more positive and more stable.

And, um, like a lot of our members I
know right now they're going through

difficult times in their life.

Maybe it's something to do
with their relationships.

Maybe it's something to do with,
with illnesses or whatever, but I

see how incredibly beneficial it is
for them during these eight hours

or whatever that they are at work.

Uh, for them it's also sort of a,
a support network or, uh, that,

that also helps them in that way.

Sonny: Yes, sure.

Yeah.

I think I'm now in, in, in the leadership
position for more than probably 20

years, And I never saw that money, mental
wellness challenges as the last two years.

Again, a lot of people believe that the
best way to work is to work from home, but

they forget about this human interaction.

If you only see your screen all day.

Yep.

Even myself, I was working from
home, which is just happens to

be one floor under the office.

But during the, the, the lockdown, I
felt myself spiraling out of control.

As in, I was not able to talk to people.

I was not able to see people.

I was not able to go to
the bar to have a beer.

The dock sheds, um, And I
think, I think we never saw that

many people with depressions.

Let's

Romeo: talk a bit about the future
of workspace and how you see

also the need of the employers.

And, um, before that, I want to
tell you a story, um, or something

I saw on Twitter, uh, this, this
developer was, um, promoting a lot,

this idea of, uh, light therapy.

It's very interesting thing that he was
saying, look, because now I work remotely.

I can, and on projects I can
actually divide my working hours.

Right.

So what he did is he said, okay, I, I
divided based on the, the light outside.

Uh, so he wakes up at
seven in the morning.

He works until nine from nine.

He goes out for walks.

He has that.

He enjoys that light till
like 12, then he has lunch.

He works in another hour.

Uh, he goes again, he, he uses the light
and then in the evening, uh, you know,

he works and he made this type of plan.

If you have kids, if you
some kind of infographics.

Right.

Um, and this is another example
of how the tech industry is, uh,

disrupting, you know, the whole idea
of, of working hours in your country.

Yeah.

Like few weeks ago, they approved in
the government, the, uh, four hour.

How is it?

Like

Sonny: four hour, four
days, four days a week.

Uh, we have a great
facility working weekend.

Romeo: Um, so it seemed
like with Uber, right?

Like the tech industry, uh,
disrupted, like with the, the whole

transportation mobility with talk
about Airbnb, so on and so forth.

So how do you see this?

I'm asking both of you,
how do you see the future?

Um, of the workspace, uh, working
employers needs and so on.

I

Sonny: think there will always be, uh, on
the 13th of March, 2020, but this was when

the pandemic suddenly was real in Krakow.

And I remember that, uh, we back then
we were working from the office every

day and I remember going to team
together and the, in the kitchen.

And I said, guys, this is getting real.

We are going to work from
home for the next two weeks.

But if the pandemic is over by then,
we are going to come back earlier.

And this was the last time that I saw
the whole team together in the office.

Yeah.

Two years ago.

So even business owners
have evolved in this.

I will never expect now anymore that
my team comes to the office every day.

If they want to come, they
are more than welcome to come.

The office is there.

We are not going to take it away.

Also the, um, expectation that
people are going to be in the office

from nine to five has disappeared.

This comes with benefits
and disadvantages.

We have people that are not
able to switch off anymore.

Have we have people replying to
emails at 11 in the evening emails

that don't need to be responded
to at 11 o'clock in the evening.

Okay.

So it comes with some
dangerous elements as well.

I think you need to manage
people based on outcomes.

What is expected from you?

Yep.

And how they get there
shouldn't matter too much.

However, if you have a lot of
juniors, it's easy enough to say

this is what they expect from you.

If you don't tell them how to do it.

So in the past, there are a lot
of books have been written about

situational leader leadership, basically.

How do you lead people in any
segment of their career and the

life and the life cycle of a career?

How do you approach juniors?

How do you approach people that are
in the, in the, in the business for,

uh, for awhile and how do you lead
the people that are smarter than you?

Yep.

This has even became more important.

And I think this is also one of the
reasons why companies, the bigger

Corpus are not hiring juniors anymore.

Because they don't have the
time to tell them what to do.

They only speak about the outcome

Romeo: So we are talking about a
much more competitive market where

if you're a recent grad, it's pretty
much hard to build that, uh, that

experience because the companies
expect the, the, the outcome.

Right?

Michal: Yup.

Does this in any way, create any
opportunities for, for companies

that are more forward thinking?

I mean, can you,

Sonny: of course, like we, we
are building our academy on this.

We are hiring journalists from university,
the university V we hired people for

that have only, um, experience in the,
in the bar of the, of the, of, you know,

Romeo: Yeah.

Like for example, we also hired
a, uh, a bodybuilder, actually.

He had his own company.

He had, uh, uh, for personal trainers,
no marketing experience, nothing,

but he had this entrepreneurial
entrepreneurial scheme.

Sonny: Right.

But they need th they need to accept that
they will need time to grow in their role.

And the company will need to invest
in the juniors, whatever they do.

I think it's, um, this is how
you're built company culture.

This is how you built loyalty to, to
your, to, to your brands because those

people had all the opportunities with you.

Michal: Uh, earlier you said
company culture is overrated.

Uh, For me company cultures is
something that deeply fascinates me.

I'm curious if from your perspective,
how much of company culture or

whatever you want to call it is simply,

Romeo: um, uh,

Michal: like, uh, documenting the, the
personal personality of, of each of your

team members in terms of, you know, if
you have people who are interested in,

in board games, if you have people who
are interested in a startup culture,

how much is it about just simply giving,
uh, a megaphone to those interests, to

those voices instead of sort of curating
your own sort of, uh, Form of, of what

they should get, uh, adjust to for a lot

Sonny: of companies, company culture is
only an HR poster in the canteen with

the values and the values and mission
and vision and strategy and mission.

Uh, and we want to, uh, we
want to improve people's lives.

That's, that's usually the, because
we're the best because we are.

And that's what, and that's,
that's why we pay salaries.

Yeah.

Um, block and mending the, the, the
likes and dislikes of your employees.

I don't know if that should be done.

Um, but I believe that you
should give them all the

opportunities to do such things.

We had a, a couple of weeks where.

On a couple of days per week,
they were using the con the, the

office for a what's it called?

This role play role, playing
Dungeons and dragons.

We have.

So first of all, we are allowing our
staff to use the office at any given time.

So in the weekends we already
had photo shoots there.

We had makeup classes.

Um, we have beer tastings, we
have beer, um, uh, beer brewing.

Romeo: So now with the crisis in Ukraine,
you're also, you're telling me that,

uh, you're doing some charity work,

Sonny: so not, we, we have, we have,
we have, uh, five Ukrainian employees.

Uh, two of them are
currently stuck in Ukraine.

They were just visiting family.

One of the two is a male,
so he cannot come back.

Um, So what we are providing, um,
accommodation, so we can, uh, convert

our office space back to our apartments.

Um, if people need to work
from home more, so be it.

Um, we are helping with the paperwork,
um, employment where needed, um, to, to

all the family members of our employees.

I think it's, it's, it's, it's,
it's something that you have to do.

Um, um, I'm deeply convinced that this
is where you show your face as a company.

And again, this is how you build a company
culture by being there in difficult times.

Yeah, my, my, my mom, she's 70 years.

God bless her.

She called me last week because she
wanted me to come home to Belgium

because it's getting dangerous here.

I told her, I said, how, how
bad of a person would I be

that I leave the country?

Because there is fighting
in the neighboring country.

This would be the worst thing
that you can do in front of your

Romeo: employees.

Sonny: So, yeah, that's the,
this is company culture.

This is what, this, this is how
your people believe in your brand,

in what you're doing every day.

It's the small

Michal: things.

It sounds like company
culture is not dictated.

It's sort of grown.

Sonny: Yeah.

So I think half of the company
have company credit cards.

We, we give company credit
card to anybody who has.

And they don't even need to justify
their need to get an invoice, but

they don't need to justify, or they
need to, they don't need to ask

for approval what they want to do.

If they want to take the team out.

If they want to take their colleagues out,
if they need to buy a book, they can do it

Romeo: again.

So don't you think that this is impossible
for big corporations who are coming into,

into center eastern Europe, setting up
this business process outsourcing and you

know, and they come with their own, you
know, cultures with their own systems.

It's much easier to build it and create
it and, uh, um, actually imposing it.

Right.

Yeah.

But,

Sonny: okay.

So we are an organization of 60.

This is nothing compared with an
organization of 1000 and 2000.

And I don't think that will
ever be possible that you have.

1000 people, there's bit over 500 of
them with the vets company credit cards

or on the other hand, sorry, but you
mentioned they're very believable.

They are coming here with
your, with their culture.

And that is exactly
what should not be done.

They should build the
company culture here locally.

Then don't expect that the company
culture you bring or from Germany or

from Sweden or from the states that this
can be just plugged in here locally.

Romeo: Yeah.

But in, in, in that case, maybe you lose
control because the idea is to have the

control from Stockholm there for you.

Uh, you are having the
budget in, in, in Stockholm.

You need an output from,
uh, Krakow office and you.

If you come with your processes with
your culture, this is, uh, I'm saying

this like how I believe they would
think, you know, I'm not approving this.

I worked in corporations,
big corporations.

And, um, I went that route.

So I believe that is much convenient.

Right.

Then let the, um, the BPOs, uh, here
in, in, in his century senior build

their own culture because then it will
be very disorganized in, in their head.

Let's see.

Sonny: But then, but then you're
defining corporate culture, which

in my opinion is not possible.

Cannot say this is going
to be our company culture.

You can say, oh, and we are
going to improve people's lives

and we are the best and yeah.

And we are.

But the company culture is
something that is not tangible.

Yeah.

So that's why the

Romeo: retention rate will
be one and a half years.

You're not attached to the company.

You see a position with 150 years,
more, 200 Euro, more salary, you

switch without even thinking.

Right.

And, um, I just want to go to
the last questions, um, because

we, um, I'm a very aware of time.

I went to a conference, uh,
for a student organization.

Um, and there was the, we
were the small company there.

And then, um, all the big four, basically.

Yeah.

So we man digital at all the
big four, like, and one of

my colleagues did an iceberg.

Before we started our workshop.

We were doing a workshop for the students
there and she asked, go to the right.

If you want to join a big
organization, go to the left.

If you want to join a small one
and I'm killing you, not like

everybody who went to the small,
uh, in front of the big four there.

Right?

Why do you think this generation,
these, these youngsters

were like in their twenties?

Yeah, like max 22 and everybody went to
the small organization and I was like

amazed because when I was 22, right.

Like 14 years ago, that
would never happen.

Like I was dreaming of going into
this big corporation where I can

develop and I will be this big
manager and so on is the fault.

Right.

But it's just the shift.

Sonny: There's a shift.

I think a couple of TV shows
have helped us Silicon valley.

Um, also the success of a lot of startups.

However, what a lot of people don't
realize that going into a small company

or a startup, not necessarily the same,
it's also comes with some disadvantages.

Processes are not existing.

They arrive.

What do you mean?

There's no laptop yet.

There's no phone.

There's no SIM cards.

Sometimes it's happened
in, in our company.

That's on the Monday morning when
already the first new employees

are in the building that I need
to create their email addresses.

Romeo: Oh, it happened
with all our influx.

Yeah.

Sonny: But that won't, that that
usually won't happen in corporate.

It's going to be more organized
and some people will like it more.

Organized and real, we already
lost some people that came from

some of the big recruitments, uh,
organ BP organizations came to us.

They stayed for six months and then
they went back because they couldn't

adapt to the almost perceived chaos that
there is in a smaller, smaller company.

Romeo: It can create some
stress at the end of the day.

But like,

Michal: like with startups, I think
lots of people see startups as like

the underdog and a lot of people are
sort of rooting them on to succeed.

But as soon as that startup becomes a
big success, the accessible corporation,

it becomes this evil empire, right.

Sonny: Or fails because of more
startups fail, then succeed.

Yeah.

Michal: Uh, I have a question about,
uh, something that I observed at

a company that I used to work for.

Um, at the time it was
about, um, 120, 150 people.

What would I moved away from this company?

And I remember one of the founders of the
company, uh, he said something like, uh, w

we are not just a company, we're a family.

Oh, well, yeah.

And, and whenever he would say this,
or whenever any of the founders would

say this in the room, there would
often be a lot of, um, eye-rolling

from the staff in various departments
and everything, because many of

them didn't see it like a family.

Um, what's when you hear words
like that, we're a family.

We're not just a

Sonny: company.

I think, I think it's, it's cute.

It's cute.

I have to admit that it is also
used in our company had, um,

however, we are not family.

We are all individuals
that need to work together.

And at the end of the month,
the bills need to be paid.

Um, it's all good to be family until you
need to performance mind, somebody out.

If you build this emotional
attachment, that is typical with

a family is going to be very hard
to performance, manage people.

Yeah, that is my opinion.

So it is like I said, it's cute.

And it, this works up until you're five
people or 10 people, but if you grow

ones that you pass this pain point of
30 employees, you need to put structure.

Processes in place.

You need procedures, you need to have
agreements contracts because the NDAs,

NDAs, noncompetes, all these things.

So as that,

Michal: uh, no, I I'm.

I'm totally with you.

I think it's, it's really unrealistic.

Um, plus yeah, it's, it's just unrealistic
to, to expect everybody in that team,

in that quote unquote family to, to
be in the same mindset that yes, for

them, this, this work, these eight
hours, this whatever is as important

to them as let's say their own personal
family or their own passions and things

Sonny: like that.

And it shouldn't be, it's a it's
it's, it is a term to make feed.

People, give, to give
belonging to the bill.

They can identify with.

Michal: It's this pseudo loyalty
kind of a thing, but yeah,

Sonny: the thing is, this is
the YouTube, uh, impact of every

blogger now saying, hello, family.

Hello?

Hello.

Hello, volt family.

Make sure to subscribe
and hit the bell button.

Yeah.

Right.

Michal: But then it just,
just cheapens the word, right?

It's like, if you keep saying
the word, love to somebody

in it soon, it means nothing.

Romeo: Great.

Thanks a lot for this discussion.

Really nice to have this, um, diverse
topics, you know, because we talked about,

you know, you coming here and building up
the, uh, recruitment agencies now, what,

what, what are the developers world yet?

Where, where is this
going company culture?

I really loved it like this.

Michal: This was a good one.

I really enjoyed it.

Uh, I'm so glad we, we
got to talk to you today.

Thank you for having me.

All right, Romeo.

So now that we wrapped up that
conversation with Sonny, uh, if you,

for some reason we're starting your
own, uh, recruitment it recruitment

company, uh, where would you go
to, to find some people for your

Romeo: company, Clinton?

It to a restaurant of clearly
impressed me the idea of actually

finding someone or being impressed
by a waiter and, uh, transforming.

Him into great recruiter,

Michal: right?

Yeah.

Well, when I heard him tell that story,
I was just thinking talent is talent

and, and you can't close yourself
off of where you find that talent.

You gotta be open to it

Romeo: and companies,
not the family right.

At the end of the day.

Michal: No, no.

And, and that sort of goes into the,
what, what he said about company

culture as it being overrated.

And it's really something that
you don't dictate at the start.

It's something that evolves
and groves, um, like all

relationships and different facets.

Romeo: And another thing that
is super important, what Sonny

said is specialized early.

If you are a recent grad and you
want to get a job and develop your

career path, don't be generalist
and specialized in a particular.

Um, an old function,

Michal: Sonny personifies
that really well.

Cause he's beaming with personality.

You could hear the humanity in his
voice, the way he talks about his staff,

the way he talks about, uh, reaching
out to his, uh, clients and, and, and

trying to find solutions for them.

It's a lot of humanity.

It's about thinking about the human, uh,
the people that are filling these roles

and for them to be the right people.

Romeo: So another great episode.

That in my view deserves a five star.

Michal: Yeah.

So if you guys are able to be
leave us a review, go for it.

Romeo: 5 0 6.

Michal: Thank you for listening.

Growth Gossip was recorded at
Yolk workspace and community and

Krakow

Romeo: if you enjoyed listening,
please give us a share or

Michal: review on apple podcasts
or wherever you listen to us.

Romeo: See you next time.