Growth Gossip

Michal: This is the growth gossip
podcast, where we talk about grow

Romeo: But what exactly it

Michal: is growth?

Romeo: We are going to find out.

What's behind this buzzword

Simon: hosted

Michal: by yours, truly Michal of yolk,
workspace, and community, in Krakow

Romeo: and me Romeo Mann,
founder of MAN digital

Michal: your the man.

Hey Romeo.

So who do we have in the studio today?

Romeo: Hi, Michal.

Today we have Simon.

He is a sales effectiveness consultant
for different tech companies,

including Google T-Mobile, Cisco
and bunch of other companies.

We will talk today how he went from
selling door to door in us while he

was student and he, to the psychology
of, of that sales of starting

conversation to consulting big tech
companies and look into the journey

and dive into the minds of people.

Michal: That sounds interesting.

I really hope he sort of goes beyond that
six pushy sales tactics, kind of a thing,

and gets into how to do it properly.

Romeo: Yeah, let's see that.

All right.

Hey Simon.

Welcome to growth gossip.

Welcome to the show.

Hey Michal.

Welcome.

Hey, good to see you guys.

Good to see you again, Michal

Simon, we know each other for some
time and you, I like to say that

you are this sales guru, right.

Of, of Poland.

You work with a bunch of interesting
companies and you have a lot of stories.

This, this show will be fun because, you
know, from door to door, us type of sales

to working with big companies like Google
T-Mobile and so on Cisco and many more

it's an interesting journey, I suppose.

So I am really thrilled to have you here.

And I, I cannot wait
to go into the stories.

So tell us at the beginning a bit
more about you and what do you

do, and what's the story about
all this sales effectiveness?

Simon: Well, first of all,
thank you for having me here.

I'm really happy to, to join you
and, and to share some of my stories.

So there's a couple things I'm doing
now, and it's always hard, right?

Because you know, if you have
a longer list of companies that

you're involved with and people
are like, so what, what do you do?

Like how much time do you have?

But well, there are a few things
that I'm more involved than the other.

So as you probably know, like the
main business I'm running is is a

consultancy firm called Northstar.

And we've been running this
for over like eight years now.

And basically it's a company
that helps with B2B sales.

So we've been active all over Europe,
already have offices in Krakow, Slovakia,

Estonia, France, and actually working
on opening new ones that, and this is a,

Romeo: what is this B to B
sales, what do you mean by that?

Simon: So basically what we're
doing is we're helping up.

The processes set up the strategies
and literally get the sales

for all types of businesses.

So we've been just like you mentioned,
working with big corporations,

like Google T-Mobile, Cisco Intel.

We've been working with unicorn
startups like bolt, for example, where

we've been responsible for the first
B2B strategy for Europe and Africa.

In many, many midsize software companies,
startups are accelerators investors.

So most of all, we're helping them
build a framework of sales so they

can literally test their approach.

They can verify at the then scale it.

Romeo: So just to get this
straight and simplify it.

What's wrong with these
companies that they need help.

Simon: There's nothing wrong or
well, most of the hurricane, but it's

just like with your own personal
development, you know, if you're doing

sports, you can always be better.

You can always be faster.

And sometimes the little things
make a difference from starting

in just, you know, local.

You know, runs or local championships
and going more regional global, right?

So this is, this is what
we're trying to help.

Like we're focusing mainly on tech
companies because they do have

a lot of potential in scaling.

But also it's harder to sell some
of the super innovative ideas.

So it's not like, you know, just
come and say, Hey, do you need a car?

Or do you need an apartment?

You know, a lot of times the, you know,
the things that, the value that those

companies bring isn't defined fully,
and this is what we're trying to help.

We try to help them define the value and.

Let the clients buy, not make them buy.

Cause this is the main difference.

And you probably heard a lot about, you
know, the booshie sales guys are, you

know, the door to door guys that come in
and sell with their knee and the elbow.

And they're like, come
on another objection.

No, but but to be fair, you know,
this is, this is what really works and

what makes the difference between just
pushing people into buying and literally

selling and scaling those that sales.

Romeo: Yeah.

We'll definitely go into this experience
of selling door to door, as you

mentioned, but I cannot call back.

Like there is this big
company bolt, right?

Like they are, everybody knows about
this company is Stony and success.

I

Michal: think let's be clear.

Cause I think there's a few big
companies in the world called bolt.

I think there's one more in the UK.

We're

Romeo: talking about the
Uber type of, you know,

Simon: the Uber of Europe.

Romeo: Yeah.

They don't like it for sure.

So the sharing car sharing company, right.

So these guys hired you guys to
do what he says and why, why they

need, because you know, when I think
of both, I think like, okay, they

are kind of a bigger organization.

They can really do things on their own.

Why do they need consulting guys from
Krakow to help with sales in Europe?

And like, what are you
bringing on the table?

Simon: Well, first of all, we, you
know, we're pretty funny, right?

So, so, you know, we can crack some
jokes and, you know, have really good

atmosphere when we're meeting people.

No, of course I'm joking,
but that's not us.

Right.

But that was a good start.

Yeah.

No, the main, the main thing that you
have to think about is that every single

company doesn't matter if you're bolt,
which is valued for what eight, $9 billion

now or if you're T-Mobile or Google, you
always need help in some areas, right?

Like it's not that they're saying,
Hey, we need a tool for collaboration

and work in on spreadsheets.

Let's build another XL.

No, they just buy it.

For example, from Microsoft or Google
did that, they bought, they built

it, but after some time, right.

But.

You need help on software, on processes
and you don't want to reinvent the wheel.

So that was kind of the idea from
bolts management, that they received

quite decent funding to start a new
business line, which was B2B and

they didn't have time to reinvent
it, to build it from scratch.

And they wanted someone who understands
the market, someone who understands

the processes and someone who can do
it just with a more agile approach.

And so how would

Romeo: a B2B for both look like,
like, cause you know, I know.

I can just use my phone and
I call a bolt and that's it.

I don't get this B2B.

Simon: Yeah.

So, so the B2B part is that we
don't sell to, or we didn't, the

guys didn't sell to individuals.

They would just knock on the corporate
door and they would go to a, like

a big bank or a company that has
hundred, 500 people or a couple

thousand people and say, Hey you're
using taxis a lot of taxis, and you're

probably losing a lot of money on that.

So how about we charge you 30% less
and people don't have to pay and bring

your dose, you know, receipts and that
counting hates them, but you can get

one invoice at the end of the month.

And everyone gets paid
from the corporate card.

Of course, you know this is a quick
summary, but this is the main value.

But they needed to actually go
and explain the value they had to

change the COO or the HR person.

Idea on how taxis work and how they can
save money on that, or, you know, like

just make her accounting more happy.

Right.

Romeo: Okay.

So do you work with, with bolt on
this, but you also work a lot with

technology companies that sell
more sophisticated technologies

or there are teams of developers.

And we know that in Poland and
in this region, we have very

good developers Hanse in west.

They, they look at this.

So how do you see, you know, selling,
you know, the taxi and they're

selling full on augmented teams
with very sophisticated technology.

Like for me, it's like, how
do you make the shift and how.

How what are the main differences
and how do you sell them?

Simon: Well for a lot of people, it
would be much different just because one,

you can look at as a box service, right?

Hey, I'm just literally getting a
SAS platform where I can just plug

in my corporate card and people start
writing, you know, thinking rights.

And then the other side you're
you have a team which can build

anything, but in reality, the
beginning of the conversation,

the value proposition discussion.

Okay.

Like, I literally have to sit
down with someone because there's

a person on the other side.

That's why we're focusing on B2B.

We need to get deeper into what are
their needs, what is the situation?

What frustrates them or what, you
know, what brings the most stress or

pressure in their life and their minds.

Yeah, exactly.

That.

And then based on that
kind of verify, okay.

Do I have a solution for this?

Can I help you?

Yeah, a soft piece of
software that I have.

Can I build something from scratch?

Do I have some sort of experience
or, you know, some domain experts

that can help you directly?

And that's where I actually go
into case studies into client

stories versus, you know, showing a
platform and, and that's kinda it.

And of course at the very end, it's,
you know, that's the difference

in sales because I literally
sell hours of developers, but

there was a whole idea before it.

So, so when people hire me, for example,
software companies, they don't hire

me to, you know, to start selling Java
developers or duck bay developers.

Actually.

Do you want me to box those
developers around a certain idea, a

certain vertical, certain business
story and then take it to the next.

Romeo: Got it.

Got it.

So let's, let's start with the
beginning because this is great.

Like you are here, you're, you're
working with this amazing technologies

and I suppose you have a bunch of
stories from your clients at the end

of the day, you learn a lot from, from.

But the, how one becomes
a sales consultant.

How, how, how do you get there?

Because I suppose there are some
listeners, maybe they are fresh graduates

or maybe they are in corporate and they
would like to change and they see this.

Oh, wow.

So I can have a job in which what I do.

I actually teach a different
tech companies on how to sell.

And I interact with so many
of different companies.

I can learn so much
about each one of them.

I don't need to be in one company.

I don't need to be in one organization,
work with, you know, two, three

clients I can diversify so much.

So what's, what's the beginning of
how, how did you get into sales?

Simon: Well, first of all well, for
me, there were many steps, steps in

many stages, but I think the biggest
step was realizing that I cannot say.

That I basically I'm bad at it.

And they realized that quite early.

That's why I was, I was lucky,
lucky enough to do this.

I started my first
business when I was seven.

So that's why right now I can say I have
20 years of experience because I do, I

lost my first cache when I was even 16.

So, you know, once you start
failing, you start thinking

about what can you do better?

How can you approach this?

So what would you say?

Yeah, when I was 17 well actually I
even did some things before, but the

big step was I opened the company
where I was selling surveillance.

Cameras operated through internet in 2002.

Oh, wow.

And well, you know, of course the curve.

Yeah.

We, it was quite quite new, but the
cool thing is that basically my uncle

who lives in us had already a company
for like three or four years like that.

And he just started to work in Poland.

So, so he took me first as a Jew as just
help for puzzling trade shows, which

are the biggest trade shows in Poland.

And we were exhibiting at the,
at the security trade shows.

And you know, that was the first time
when I got into sales and business.

And they, you know, even though I,
I knew I can talk to people and.

Try to sell.

And, and my uncle was like,
if you sell something, of

course commission goes with it.

I was like, yes, I'm going to
be a millionaire before I'm 18.

But then I realized, you know, I can
say anything and people just won't buy.

And my uncle, you know, he just smiles
and shakes a couple of heads and then

people start, you know, start buying.

So that was the time when I realized,
okay maybe need some help with this.

And you know, I just started selling
because I thought it's a good move.

But my uncle, he gave me a
really good advice, which I

didn't understand at the time.

He said, you know, when I asked
him, okay, so how do I sell?

How do I, you know, become great at this?

He's like, yeah, just, just
build trust and be yourself.

I'm like, wow, that's so deep.

And of course I can understand
it, be yourself and build trust.

But obviously, you know it has been
like, I think two years when I've been

running this there's been ups and downs.

So I had situations when I went to
meetings because I actually, I was

okay with picking up the phone and
calling up some companies and saying,

Hey, I got some great cameras.

You know, you know, you have five, 10
stores around, you can literally open your

laptop and see what's going on over there.

That was a big thing.

You know, people still use, dial up.

Some people might not know
even what the Ella pits.

So and those guys, you know,
they were excited about the

product, but they never bought.

And then I had just random people
coming over and saying, Hey, I just

have this one house in the mountains.

And I want to buy, you know, like
20,000 sliders of cameras from you.

And I was like, oh, crazy.

But sure.

Okay.

All right.

So, so at that point, I was serious
about, okay, I need to quit this

and I need to learn how to sell
because I'm not controlling this.

And I actually, when I look back, I'm,
I'm happy that I was mature enough

to, you know, just to say to myself,
Hey, you know, you're not good.

You should do something with it.

And then I met my partner from
today, Eric Eric Wesner who who

was working for this crazy company
in the United States, this company

that does door to door sales.

Yeah.

So, so basically he went to uni, he just
met me like I was first year in college

here in Krakow, and he met me at the
quarter and you just started talking.

And of course me having an
uncle in us, visiting you as we

just started the conversation.

And he's like, Hey, you know, we're
doing this, this great program

exchange program for students.

Maybe you want to come over and, you know,
look at the presentation which I did.

And then I stayed there five
years at the company, but so,

Romeo: so Eric had a presentation at the
uni about this some kind of work in trail.

Simon: Exactly.

Yeah.

So, so it was, it was yeah, it
was a program where you moved to

us for like three, four months and
you worked for a publishing firm.

So what you do is you go door to
door, selling kids, books, and Bible.

Right.

So, you know, if they could put
it short, you can say that you're

a human version of emails, Pam.

Right.

So I I'm

Romeo: curious now, can we,
can we simulate one of those?

Sure.

Let's say that me.

How is a.

You know at home single, I dunno.

Simon: No, he D he cannot be single.

Romeo: You need to have,
it was so home staying mom.

Yeah, sure.

Simon: Yeah.

What are the

Romeo: majority were moms, right?

Simon: Well, like if you're a single
dad, you would buy, if you're married

and your dad, I wouldn't talk to you.

I would actually make it my
way to talk with the mom.

So I, I still remember, even though I, my
last year on, we call it the book field.

My last year with that firm was
in 2009, but I still remember the,

you know, the sales stock, so sure.

So you can, so let's,

Romeo: let's simulate it, right.

Simon: So, yeah.

So I'm, I'm knocking on the door.

You.

No clue who I am.

You never met me.

I didn't call you didn't get the card
or anything is just cold knocking.

None

Romeo: of us.

Yeah.

Do I

Michal: have a

Simon: gun or not in Texas?

I was selling in Texas.

So

Austin was okay.

Yeah.

If you go to rural, rural areas

Michal: of Texas that, okay,
so you're knocking, I open the

door and say, can I help you?

Hi.

Hi.

Can I help you,

Simon: sir?

Yeah.

Yeah, you must be the Mount here.

Yes, I you're probably Judy right, Simon.

Nice to meet you.

Hi sorry for my accent, but I'm
an exchange student from Poland.

Okay.

Actually, I'm the one who's
responsible for sitting down

with all the parents here in.

XYZ school district here in Austin.

Okay.

Explaining a couple of study guides for
the kids that are actually, I was just

talking with Judy Johnson down the road.

I am with Rebecca, you know, the big
house with the big group or red room.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I wanted to stop by for a few
minutes and sorry, I'm in such a rush,

but I have to catch 30, 30 families
every day for, for this program.

Oh, wow.

So I literally have like
10, 15 minutes, but yeah.

You know, if you're okay, maybe
you have a place we can sit down

and I can really show you cause

Michal: you have books for kids,

Simon: right?

Yeah.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I guess you haven't heard about this.

No.

Oh, okay.

Sure.

Let, let me back out.

Okay.

So, so, so let me back up.

So, so like I mentioned I'm an
exchange student from Poland.

I'm explaining a couple of study
guys, just something to help with

homework and just make it faster,
prepare kids for college, et cetera.

And this is something that a
lot of these really expensive.

Oh, of course.

Yeah.

There are like two, $3 million,
but you know, we have, we

can have a plate payment.

No, I'm kidding.

I'm kidding.

But no, no, this is something that.

Families from you.

Haven't been getting just like
the Johnson's and Rebecca and,

oh, I didn't know about this.

And you probably know coach Stevens.

He also got into DCA.

Yeah.

So, so like I mentioned, you know, I'm,
I'm in a big rush, but if you're okay,

you know, we can sit down for 10 minutes.

If you like these, I can
show you how to get them.

If you don't like it.

That's no big deal.

Literally takes 10 minutes, but we can
even maybe sit down here at the porch, so,

Michal: okay.

Okay.

All right.

Let's see.

Simon: I'm already sitting.

So like, I, you don't see
this, but usually I would

work with my body language.

So I would literally just sit down
at the board and you would, you

would already be my presentation.

So, so

Romeo: walk us through a bit,
like what, what did you do there?

Like, because so interesting.

How

Simon: did you feel?

How did you feel, first of all,

Michal: you know, I was kind of caught
off guard with, with your whole.

First of all, you're like, wow, he knows
this neighbor and that neighbor like this

person either did their research, or at
least there's someone who's in some way,

connected to the community around me.

It kind of creates some context.

A second thing was you also express
some background about yourself as being

a foreign exchange student from Poland.

Eh, you might've explained why
you might have some detectable

accent, so at least not so

Less cautious because I have a better
understanding of where you're coming from.

Right.

Because opening my door to a
stranger, at least now I know.

Okay, this makes sense.

That makes sense.

And another thing was that you
kept repeating that you don't have

much time, which is great because
I probably don't have much time.

So I'm glad that you don't have much time.

Cause I don't have to explain that I
don't have much time to listen to you

because I got something cooking and yeah.

Huh.

Simon: Yeah.

So, so to be honest, it took me four years
to understand the words that I was saying.

I, you know, cause I, when I first came
to us, I just got a sales book, right.

A sales talk and I just had to,
you know, learn it by heart.

And I just had to say.

You know, in front of the people.

And the first year when I was there, or
the first couple of weeks, I had to knock

on about 60 doors to get 30 conversations.

And that was my goal for
every day 30 presentations.

And then from those 30 there's
discussions I had about 12

to 15, we call it sit down.

So it was like a whole cycle,
15, 20 minute presentation.

So sit down, you sit down, I sit
down on the board or a go to at

the kitchen table or the, yeah,
just, just sit, literally sit down.

Cause, cause that wasn't.

People don't buy when they're staff
standing, people buy, when they're

sitting down like this, basically
they have to have this thing going

on, like, as you're more relaxed and
you're more open to get information,

but, but, you know, step a step.

And, and, and basically from those
15 conversations, usually I got like

one or two clients a day and I've
been working for four months, right.

For, you know, for that year, my fifth
year when I was selling of course I got

way smarter and way better with my tone of
voice, body language, you know, the names,

referrals, and how I use all those tools.

I usually knocked on like 30, 31 door to
get 30 presentations to get 20 cycles,

to get 10 to 15 clients every single day.

Nice.

Yeah, but like literally took me
four years to understand those things

and

Romeo: that forced the
summers because this was four

Simon: summers.

Yeah.

But, but if you look at it, it was
four summers when I was working 13, 14

hour every day, Monday till Saturday.

And you know, the hourly, I literally
did like a year in four months.

Right.

Looking at the normal
normal sales approach.

But yeah, looking at the, you know,
the, even the words that I say,

like everything mattered there.

Like maybe you realized when I, when
you said, Hey, how can I help you?

I just said, hi, and that's it.

Why?

Because if I started shooting, like, Hey,
I'm doing this, but I'm just a sales.

And when I'm literally, when I'm doing a
cold call now, or when I meet people at

a conference or when I was knocking back
in U S when you say hi, and you look at

someone, you know, keep the eye contact,
smile, but are going to do, they're

going to say, hi, that's a conversation.

It's not a monologue anymore.

Right.

So you feel differently.

And then I slowly get into explaining
what questions you have in your head.

So your questions are, who is this person?

Do I know him?

Am I interested in what he's doing?

Is this going to belong?

And should I listen now?

So I literally answered these questions
in the first 15, 20 seconds dropping

things like, yeah, you don't know me.

I'm an exchange student from
Poland, but I've been around.

Literally the couple of words were
like, I'm the one who's responsible

for sitting down with all the families.

So in, in your head subconsciously,
you were like, He's responsible

for sitting down with all the
parents in the school district.

So we need to sit down.

So you already visualize that.

So now when I literally, when I'm
sending cold emails or when I'm

approaching some people and say,
Hey, I'm the one responsible for

talking to all the startups, CEOs
of IOT companies here in Krakow.

And if you're an IOT startup company,
you're like, I need to talk to you.

You have fear of missing out.

W

Michal: but when you say
that, like how true is it?

Simon: Well, I decide if
I'm responsible or not.

Okay.

Michal: All right.

Simon: That's questionable.

Well, of course, you know, I
did get those questions in us.

Are you from the school district?

Right?

So, so because for some
people, it sounded like this.

I was, I needed to be quite open.

No, I'm not with the.

I'm just on a summer program, but the
summer program, but you know, the goal

of it is that I sit down with every
single family in the school district.

And that's where I dropped some names
and names are magic because just

like you mentioned, I'm a stranger
until I say, yeah, I know, you know,

this neighbor and that neighbor
and his neighbor and that neighbor.

And then you're like,
oh, he knows everyone.

And he's, you know, he's responsible for
sitting down with everyone on the only

animal doesn't know what's going on.

Right.

I'm missing out.

I need to sit down with
this dude and I need

Michal: to listen closer
because this is important.

Exactly,

Simon: exactly.

Romeo: Yeah.

So I think that's today, the
power of networking, right?

So if you're a student, if you are
someone who wants to change their job

or wants to get in a total different
industry, You know, going into events

like open coffee or going into different
networking places where they can meet

someone, maybe they work together or not,
but later on, they can refer it back.

Like I remember when I came in, in,
in Krakow as a foreigner, like, I

didn't know literally anyone here,
but the idea was to one network to get

few clients who can later on refer me.

And then only with these two things,
then I already knew the community.

Right?

Like, and then I, if someone can
say good things about me, that's it.

I mean, I just build on that.

That's a snowball effect,

Simon: but I wouldn't
even take it further.

So with people that want to
do sales, they, you know, want

to open up new conversations.

Cause it's really hard.

Like if you want to approach them,
It doesn't matter if you want to

approach them in an event or, you
know, email them cold, cold them.

That's that's really hard.

Right.

People are like, okay, but why
would they want, you know, why

would they want to meet with me?

So if you, if you prepare it, like,
I remember when I, well, when I

came back from us, I had a marketing
agency and I didn't know anyone.

I spent the last five years in us.

I didn't have any contacts
and I just finished college.

I was a 25 year old boy.

You know, that thought, Hey,
maybe I can do some business here.

But since I knew the power of like
processes of sales off of referrals, I

just went to two or three conference.

And when there was really nice speakers
from cool brands, I just approached

them after their presentations and
said, Hey, that's a great presentation.

You, how can we grab a coffee?

I got some questions.

And of course, you know,
you feel like a stars.

Who'd be like, sure, let's go and talk.

And then they pitched you my idea.

I was like, Hey, I have this
digital agency, blah, blah, blah.

And you're like, no, no, no, I'm not
interested, but I already talked to you.

So the next day, the next guy I
would be talking to, I said, Hey,

just had a conversation with me.

How, you know the star?

Yeah, maybe you want to talk.

This

Romeo: is interesting salmon.

Maybe a lot of our listeners will not
necessarily do sales and not all of them.

Maybe some will get inspired.

But I suppose every.

Is doing networking in a
way or in another right.

Parties, events, you name it.

Like you socialize, you, you, you,
you go in a community like, like

yolk and you know, you, you have
this environment of networking.

So let's do a, you know,
smart course saying set up.

We are at the conference, you
are you know, a fresh grant.

You, you want to get into,
into tech, let's say me, how

is an owner of a tech company?

He just had a, he, he didn't have
a speech he's just there, you know,

and you need to connect with him.

Let's see how this conversation would go.

Just a small simulation.

I need,

Michal: I need a second
to get in that head space.

All right.

All right.

So you're,

Romeo: you're at a tech.

You are at the conference

Simon: and I want to start talking
to you and he just wants to start.

Nope.

I want to start a conversation.

And, and this is, this is interesting
because like, even literally last week

I was coaching one company and how to do
this because you don't have to be a grad

to have the fear of approaching someone.

Like you can be at 20, you know, a guy
with 20 years of experience in business.

And when you go to a conference you
still can't have the fear of approaching,

especially someone Superunknown or
even just approaching random people

because it's super uncomfortable
just coming up, say, hi, how are you?

Right.

Romeo: And just to mention, like, these
companies pay a lot of money to go

to some of those conferences, like if
you're from Poland and then you go to

London, you pay a lot of money for, you
know, the tickets, the accommodation,

the transport, and everything.

And then you don't know how
to talk with these people.

Right.

And your objective as a
business owner, It's to talk

to as many people as possible.

Right.

But now we are not, now she's just a

Simon: student.

Yeah.

I'm just a student.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course.

Of course.

There's different things I need to
think about like, what is my goal?

Do I want to sell something?

Do I want to get hired?

Right?

Or do I just want to start my network
and just, you know, start talking to you.

But yeah.

Okay.

So I let me ask you just

Michal: real quick.

What state of mind do
you want me to be in?

Do you want me to be Mr.

Open-minded?

Do you want me to be Mr.

I dunno, focused on something else.

Simon: It's up to you.

Alright, Jamie, how?

Okay.

Well, you know, you can be, you
don't be over open over overexcited.

Michal: I don't want to
make it too easy for you.

Yeah, exactly.

So where do I sign?

So,

Simon: okay, so the first thing,
and maybe I'll explain it at the

beginning when you're on a conference,
when you trade shows, you don't start.

With those regular pitches.

Hey, my name is Simon.

I'm doing this dad.

It doesn't work.

People already feel that you're
selling people hate sales, sales

guys, because they just turn off.

Exactly.

Like they're thinking.

Okay.

He's just going to talk
and talk and talk and talk.

So yeah, there, there's actually a line
which I charge a lot to teach these lines.

I'm going to give it give it up for free.

We invented this with would actually
with my friend when we were actually

starting, starting the digital agency.

So when I approach someone, I want
to start a conversation again.

But I want them to, to discuss with me.

So my line, when I'm approaching
someone, it doesn't matter if you're,

you know, this big fish or just a
regular guy at a conference is hi, how's

Romeo: the vent.

Simon: And how do you respond?

Michal: The speakers are more
interesting than I thought they would be.

Hmm.

Okay.

What about you?

What do you think?

Okay.

And you got me,

Simon: and to be honest, I used this line
already for like 12 years and going to

different conferences approaching like
probably one of the most known brands

as I approached and managing director of
MasterCard and a big conference in London.

A lot of people from fintechs
banks, it doesn't matter.

Like usually when you approach someone
you know, you just catch the eye

contact, start smiling and you start
just start like, Hey, how's the event

or how how's how's the trade shows or.

That usually people
respond shortly is good.

I like this.

I like that.

And then they're like, how do you like it?

And that's already again a conversation.

Right.

But of course here, the main thing
is that it shouldn't be about me.

So usually I would say, Hey,
actually, I, I thought the speakers

are going to be better, but I liked
this and this guy, but yeah, sorry.

I'm Simon, by the way.

And now what you're going to do,
you're going to introduce yourself.

Right.

Because we already had a conversation.

So when we start, you know, I said,
I'm Simon, you give me your name and

then I need to be interested in you.

I'm like, oh, so me, how so?

What do you do?

Michal: I'm the founder
CEO of Krypton IOT devices.

Ah, ah,

Simon: yeah.

I actually, I heard about you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's really cool.

Yeah.

Michal: We're, we're growing
really quick and just.

Trying to meet some new people here who
hopefully will help us overcome some of

the issues that we're dealing with as
we're growing so rapidly hypergrowth.

Simon: Nice.

Okay.

Michal: Yeah.

Simon: And yeah, I've got you again.

Huh?

Michal: It's that silence like
you, you, you feel like you're,

there's a responsibility, like a
social responsibility to fill in.

Simon: Exactly.

This is nothing that it's, you know,
out of the blue here, I make it happen.

Right.

So, so I was taught, it's
called silence management.

And again, people that are listening,
they don't see this, but I'm looking

at me how we have our eye contact
locked in and I'm nodding my head.

So I'm silent and nodding my head
and it kind of makes you right.

Makes you talk.

And

Michal: you know, this kind of In my
past life, I've had a lot of jobs and

one of them was to be an English teacher,
like English conversation lessons.

And I realized that when I was doing these
conversations with, with people who were

speaking a foreign language, which would
they weren't so comfortable with that,

if I allowed for these pauses to occur
that in a, in a matter of a few seconds,

they would fill in those pauses naturally.

And also simultaneously they would
sort of build confidence because

now they were sort of taking charge.

They were filling in stuff.

And I think gradually out sort of
conditioned them to not wait for

me to ask them another question,
but for them to be proactive.

And so that was a win-win and that that's

Simon: a great thing to to
learn because usually people

think that if they talk more.

If they start explaining people are
listening more, or they're going

to catch something interesting.

Know the, the, the biggest
confidence, like how you, how you

build confidence is through silence.

If you look at this, like the best
speakers, people that, you know are

the top, you know, public speaking
personas, they don't talk a lot.

They're really slow with what they do.

They play with their tone of voice.

Do you do long pauses because it makes
you think and gets your attention back.

And this is what you can do.

Of course, you know, I've been practicing
this for years and that's why I can do

this consciously, like in the conversation
when I'm cold approaching you.

And this is my second
sentence towards you.

But this is a cool thing to practice.

Like again, in my past life, when I was
in high school, I used to do a thing.

And maybe this kind of helped
me, you know, prepare for this

sales jobs that I got later.

So

Michal: is there's just less noise, right?

Cause you're, you're, you're not being
bombarded with a million messages and

somebody jumping from one topic to
another it it's, it's much more back

to you or said a dialogue, a natural
conversation and not a sales pitch.

Yeah.

So,

Simon: so when Romeo, when you asked me at
the very, very beginning, so what do I do?

What do I teach people
in this consultancy?

I literally helped them build the script,
build the text of what they have to

say, because people shouldn't think
about what to say, but how to say it.

Right.

And that kind of makes the difference,
because if you're focusing on what

to say at the very moment, you cannot
focus on how to, how to, you know,

play with the tone of voice, how to
do the voice inflection and when to

do the pauses, if you know what you're
going to say, at least 80, 90%, or

even 50%, you're quite confident.

And then you can do the pauses.

You can ask good questions
and it makes, makes you a 68.

I

Michal: have a question for you, Mr.

Expert.

I've always had this theory that when
you meet somebody for the first time,

those that, that initial impression,
plus just, just how you start off, eh,

you and that person in terms of your
relationship, you're sort of creating

roles at that instance and that roles
you, you might, for some time that those

roles might kind of carry you through.

Do you think there's some logic to that?

For example, if in that initial
intersection between you and somebody

else, you are, the more dominant you are,
the more something, something that you

sort of get, it's not like concrete you're
set in those roles, but, but that they

definitely sort of carry over to how that
relationship progresses or, or am I just

simply talking about first impressions?

No

Simon: Well of course, you know,
there's different steps because you

can have the first impression and the
first contact and never see that person

again, because you just didn't click.

And that's because maybe
the roles didn't work.

Like I, I, again, when I was working
in us, we did have a lot of training.

Just again, some background
info, the company that we've been

working for it's still active.

It's called Southwestern advantage.

They, they are 170 years on the market.

So we got a lot of, lot of training,
a lot of processes that allow the

knowledge that it was passed on to us.

And they did show us different profiles
of people, but people's character.

So, you know, there's a drivers.

I don't know if you heard about this.

There's like four, four types.

All right.

So there are, for example,
drivers who are really fast,

they need information right away.

There's some people that
are really analytical.

They need data right there.

Some people think it's
called amiable or yeah.

They're like just, you know, they want
to hug, you talk about emotions, right.

Then usually we're somewhere in the.

But there are some types
of which are totally off.

And for example, when, when, if I would
approach you in, you know, in Austin,

Texas, but you would be a dad and you're
not a single that you just, the dad,

usually a dad is defending his territory.

Right.

There's another guy coming
to sell some stuff to me.

And he used to probably
gonna waste my time.

So knowing this, my
approach would be different.

If you're a dad opening the door, I'll
be, Hey Simon, you must be Tom, right?

Yeah.

Sorry, Tom.

You know, actually to be honest
because I'm, I'm, I'm talking with

all the parents around here about
some books, but usually it's the moms.

You know, I, to be honest, I don't want to
waste your time because when I was talking

with Adam, he said usually the, you know,
the women deal with educational stuff.

So I don't know if Jessica is around or
do you, do you kind of take that over.

And your house and, and, you know,
for you you know, this, again,

this role, maybe just playing, you
know, with what you asked it shows

that, Hey, he's on the same level.

He understands me.

And you know, I actually, I'm not the
person dealing with educational stuff,

even though sometimes they were, but
they're like, eh, just talk to the mom.

But I think

Michal: that what you just said right
now goes, even beyond that, because

you're being incredibly empathetic.

And instead of focusing on your
needs at that moment, you're

really like putting that aside and
saying, Hey, this isn't for you.

I don't want to waste your time, but

Simon: this is, this is the knowledge
that I had from statistics, because

I knew that, you know, out of 20 or
30 dads only one would buy, right.

And out of 30 moms, 10 would buy.

So it would be, it was way better
to sit down with the mom and the dad

somewhere, you know, on the side,
know, reading his paper and kind

of looking through the paper, if,
what, what are we talking about?

But, you know, saying, Hey you
know, you deal with that.

I don't want to be involved
even though they want it to.

Right.

Because usually the mum's made
the decision, the dad's paid.

Right?

So, so it's the same when I'm,
when I'm calling up a company and,

you know, I take this experience.

That's why I took it to B2B and I'm
able to teach other companies or

people, processes and approaches
because it's a human being buying.

It's a human being, talking to you.

So when I'm calling a company and
there's a sec secretary picking up,

right, and I want to talk to the CEO.

I don't want to sell to the secretary.

She doesn't have any needs regarding
my software or the solutions.

So that's the main mistake that people do.

They share the gatekeeper.

Yeah, exactly.

So what I do, I just call
her like, hi, this is Simon.

Is Tom in the office?

That's it.

He's busy.

Oh, okay.

I was supposed to call,

Romeo: oh, really?

What time was your tone?

Simon: I said after two.

Romeo: Okay.

So, let me, let me try to get you through.

Simon: Yeah.

But of course, before I would
send an email that I'm going to

call, so it's not, not lying.

But this, this is the difference, right?

Like, like you know,
I would send an email.

Do I confirm after like the second or
third approach to a person, if they

didn't respond them to say, Hey, I'm
not getting through with the emails.

Maybe I'll just call you Thursday
after two to see if you want to

schedule a meeting with me, that's it.

I didn't even ask, you know, can I
call, I'm just going to call and when

the secretary picks up I don't want
to explain which company I'm from.

What's my last name, because
she needs to feel that, you

know, I'm at the right place.

Whereas it was like, Hey, this
assignment is Tom in the office.

And most of them usually they
will be like, oh yeah, sure.

I want to do it.

And if they're like, what is this.

Romeo: Let's discuss a bit
about why people are, why people

are afraid of sales, right?

Because for me personally side story
I worked since I was 14 you know,

child labor at my father's restaurant.

And I knew like in the summer,
and I knew that I, I just need

to be a good waiter or a good way
to assistant to get a good tips.

Yeah.

I was working for the tips.

So to get good tips, you
need to talk to tourists.

You need.

Help them understand what they want to
do in the holidays, so on and so forth.

So that really helped me today.

I have absolutely no issues in
a networking environment or in

a conference or in sales when
we do sell for my company.

So I always was, you know, amazed,
like what, what's so hard at it.

Like what, why is it so
hard to talk to people?

So what's your take on that?

Why people are afraid of
it and how, how we can help

Simon: them.

First of all, people are
afraid of rejection, right?

Like we hate this feeling that Alice, you
know, people told me, someone told me no.

Right.

Because when, when you, when you
think about it, Taught that in school,

if you want to succeed, you want, you
need to get 80, 90% out of a test.

You know, you need to be in the first
5% of failure in a race to be the top.

And if you look at sales, you have
to have 30, 40, 50 conversations

to get one sale, right.

Sometimes even a hundred.

So you have to hear 99
nos until you hear one.

Yes.

And at the time a lot of people think,
oh, probably my product is not that good.

Or maybe I'm just bad at sales.

And the another deeper thing is
that people hate to be this pushy

sales guy, because they, you know,
usually you don't think about it.

Good salespeople are salespeople.

You just think, oh,
this guy is so natural.

Like, you know, he, you know, dropped
some names, you know, everyone knows him.

He's just a cool guy, but that's it.

That's a professional salesperson.

A pushy sales person has gone to
talk, talk, talk, they're going

to show you, you know, everything.

They're going to eat all the cookies,
drink all the coffee and they're going

to be like, but please like, literally
I was, I was, I was in London last week

at a trade show and a guy stopped me,
started pitching me and I'm like, Hey man,

I actually, I've seen a better solution.

I'm not interested.

And he's like, yeah, yeah.

But let me show it.

I'm like, no, no, no, no.

Well, you know, it's just
going to take 10 minutes.

I'm like, sorry, I don't have time please.

But I need my KPIs for today.

And you're my last person I can go home.

I'm like, okay, just take the
business card, put my name somewhere.

And yeah, that's it.

Right.

So that was a pushy salesperson.

And I don't want to be that person.

Right.

So, so w when, when people
think, yeah, I need to do.

The you know, visualize themselves
as this pushy salesperson.

And, you know, it's not fun.

It's not fun.

Like, you know, when you have to make
people buy or bag for pre-sales yeah.

You don't want to do this.

Michal: It's a, it's reminds me of so
much of like the dating world in a way.

I mean, if traditionally the guy is
the one who's sort of stereotypically

sort of pushing and trying to
make certain things happen.

Right.

And when he meets a girl
most often and yeah.

Event, but often if they
just go overboard, if they

get too desperate, right.

They just kind of burn that chance.

Cause cause the, the other half we'll
we'll we'll feel it and just say.

This is, this is not for me.

Simon: Yeah.

So, so you have to learn to get nos.

You have to, you have to basically realize
that you're gonna get a lot of nos.

Right?

So maybe I was just lucky enough
that a lot of girls told me

no during the early stages.

So I'm a good sales person now, is it,

Michal: is it about just not creating
expectations and just kind of

sticking to your plan and that way
you don't kind of go crazy inside?

Simon: Well, I think, I think.

There's different ways because some
people are super motivated, right?

And they're just going
to go and start selling.

And you know, they're not looking
at, they're not going to look

at you know, the, the, the nose
and the time that they're burning.

And some people look at
this really logically.

So you need to have some
sort of a KPI system.

You still have to verify that.

Like, for me again, I was taught
this, I didn't invent this.

When I was working in U S my manager
told me, you have to knock on like

40, 50 door to get 30 presentations.

You're going to get 15 sit downs.

And, and you're going to get two
clients, of course, my first week.

Imagine there's your flight to you.

Whereas you pay for your ticket.

You have some sort of a training where,
you know, Americans, they're cheering,

jumping, and you're this Polish guy
saying, where am I what's happening here?

Is this a Coulter?

And then you go out and you
work 13, 14 hours a day.

And my first week I made $120,
$120 for 80, 80 hour hours of work.

And I was like, okay, well, I'm just
learning, you know, next week, next week

I did $150 for a whole week of work.

Right.

Even in Poland, that was bad.

Right.

But then I, you know, remembered,
okay, it's the sticks.

I need to hear a lot of nos.

And then I need to verify all
the stages of the conversation.

So if I do knock on a lot of homes,
not a lot of door and I do get a

lot of presentations, then I have
to think about the quality of the

beginning of my presentation, the value
proposition, the needs, the objections.

And then I go deeper.

And of course, you know, like my
last week of that first summer,

I did make, you know, couple of
hundred dollars a day, right.

Or later on, even up to like
a thousand dollars a day you

know, after my fifth year.

So, so, so it was just this knowledge.

Of statistics and you know, knowing
where do you need to stop and

change something in your approach.

And again, this is what I'm doing today.

I'm helping people verify what numbers
they have to hit to get into a certain

number of meetings, certain number
of conversations, certain number

of offers, because we can get into
meetings, have a lot of presentations,

but people won't buy at the end.

So then we need to verify,
okay, is it the product?

Is it the target group?

Or is it the way that we're closing?

Right.

And of course we should learn from that.

But but this is again a mindset, right?

Because today I know that I still
need to hear quite a few notes

before I get the yes, but I'm not
going to wait a thousand nos until I

say, Hey, let me change my product.

So, so

Romeo: here's the question.

Do you think it's a product can
sell itself or you still need that?

Sales guy, because what's
happening today, right?

With the technology that people hate
to sell, they try to make products

that sell themselves a K I don't know,
Netflix, Uber, you know different

kinds of tech companies Revolut, right?

Nobody calls it from level
at the cellular level.

So maybe businesses, I suppose, but
the question is, can we escape this

uncomfortable position that we
are in this, this rejection, right.

By creating better products,
or we just need a mix.

We need to blend in together,
you know, the right way of

selling and, and the products.

How do you see this?

If you think

Simon: about it even
Revolut they still have.

You know, they're using a website, they
have the app store where, you know, they

have screens, screenshots of the app.

They have some description, that's,
you know, the whole sales script.

And they weren't like, Hey, let's
just put these pictures and this text

here and it's going to sell itself.

No, they've been testing for years
and knowing life, they probably

been testing doing interviews
with potential clients or users

way before they even built the app.

Right.

So you're probably familiar
with the design sprint, right.

The book.

And I love that approach.

So, so, so this is how you can go
around selling because you know, a lot

of people are not comfortable talking
one-on-one and trying to sell directly.

And some products you can sell remotely,
like, no, of course, SAS solutions

or you know, different apps, but you
still have to have a sales strategy,

sales approach and how you build
it, how you populate this content.

Is through interviews.

So you do, you know the same thing
that I did door to door at the

same thing that I did selling to
bolt or T-Mobile you have to pitch.

Right.

But how you pitch it.

Well, you have to get, get it from

Romeo: tests.

Yeah.

And sometimes you have also,
you know, marketing there.

So if I have a startup, if I start
a organization, what do I do first?

Do I need to do sales?

Do I need to marketing?

How do I decide what to, which one?

To choose what to start

Simon: with?

You do research.

And by research, I mean, you know,
get the main ideas on a piece of

paper, like read the design sprint,
first of all, and then get five, 10

meetings with your, with your network.

So again, what I'm doing right
now, when I'm consulting firms is

we're doing some workshops on, for
example, what is your target group?

What are the personas?

What is the value proposition and the
main features you want to sell to them?

And then before we go live with sales,
I'm like, okay, you have this take

five to 10 people from your LinkedIn
because you have CTO startup owners.

Whoever's the persona.

You have your friends.

They're going to be honest with you.

Call them, have a meeting with them,
or just have a call with them for 15

minutes or five minutes sometimes.

And tell them, Hey, this, this makes
sense is, you know, you knowing

me and knowing what I do does
this communicate what I'm doing?

Or it's just, it's not true.

I don't want to use bad words here.

So I'm the, and of course those
people are gone to be honest.

And this is the first test.

This is a network test.

And once you validate this and
they say, yes, this is the good

value I would, I would use this.

I would pay for this.

Then you go live.

And not, it doesn't matter if you
would go with a B2B direct approach,

you know, emailing LinkedIn, you
know, going through LinkedIn and

having meetings, or if you would pay
for ads, having marketing, right.

And usually the best approach.

And of course, looking at B2B and.

Solutions, which are like
more than a thousand euros.

I would say first I would
start with meetings.

So doing some emails or account-based
sales, just to get to this interaction

and get not only feedback from your
network, but also feedback from

strangers that are verifying your idea.

And once they verify this, once you
have the feedback, you have clients

and they tell you why they love your
product, then you start investing in

marketing, but is already on tested turf.

Right.

So,

Romeo: yeah, so I think this is something
that many times companies forget this

contextual part, this part where, okay,
how do we start the engagements and

not necessarily with marketing or with,
with sales, but actually with being

interested in those people and with
engagements I'm very aware of time.

And I usually put this questions regarding
your, if you would be Simon recent

grad, 2022 with them, where the mind
that you have today, what would be your

start in, in your career and your career?

What career path would you choose?

Simon: Okay, well, when I was
a grad, I already had five,

well, seven years of experience.

So a well, actually started early.

Right?

So I would say my real professional
sales career started when I was a

first year, first year in college.

Yeah.

So of course, if there are some
people that are listening who

are still in college, I would
just say, Hey, go somewhere.

You know, join Isaac, go to
this work and travel thing,

start doing what can be useful.

So talk to people, do some sales,
maybe go through the same program

that I was, is still working.

You can still go there and
you can still sell a fun fact.

You probably know pipe drive.

So for example, the founders of five
drive where people that went through

this program as well, you know, Tableau
founders of Tableau and a lot of people

in the sales department there in us
and UK went through this program.

So, you know, there's a long list of
people that went through the sales, same

thing, especially when they're in college.

Right.

So what I would do is I would probably
just get busy with different projects.

I would do some volunteer.

Right.

Because again, sometimes people don't
know if they want to get involved fully.

So, you know, just go far, find a
foundation or find some sort of a,

you know, even a cook community.

Right.

And just do something because
you're going to learn a lot and

you're going to meet people.

So once you do this it's just going to
be easier for you to, to, you know, start

a passion or build a business that is
going to bring more fun into your life.

Michal: That was great.

And I think it's important
for people who are listening.

Maybe they're not trying to sell us
product or service, but every day we, as

human beings are interacting with people.

We're trying to sell our messages.

We're trying to sell our ideas
or trying to sort of nudge people

maybe in a different direction.

We are selling.

So those skills are.

Things that we use every day.

It might be with our kids.

It might be with our partner
whatever organizations that,

that we surround ourselves in.

So let's not be so narrow-minded
and think of it as just

strict professional capacity.

Yeah.

It goes beyond that.

Romeo: And do you have some books that
you could recommend to our listeners?

Yeah.

Well, there there's

Simon: different books.

Of course that I went through and
there's been a lot of motivational books,

so they're really good at the early stage.

So I think he did.

Yeah, there's a, there's
one which I really loved.

It's called slaying the dragon by
Michael Johnson on this is a guy

who won the gold medal in Atlanta.

I was 1992 if I recall.

Well, basically it's the guy who,
who was practicing or was training

for 10 years to do a hundred
meter, 200 meter and a 400 meters.

But for people that know sports is so
different disciplines and it was the

first guy ever who won those disciplines
in one event and won gold medals.

And he's basically talking about the
pressure he had to manage and how he

was preparing for this, you know, 22nd.

For 10 years.

Right.

And also how he blew it in the mail
because the first five years he, yeah,

he didn't make it, but you know, that,
that was a great motivational book.

So if someone right now is starting
a startup or, you know, having a

hard time with their career, just
feeling a lot of pressure with their

business that helped me a lot that
book another book that I loved is

called never split the difference
that it's a book about negotiations.

So it's from a guy who
used to be a FBI, FBI.

Negotiator.

Yeah.

So he, he actually
explains the methodologies.

Yeah.

Chris cruise boss.

So, so, so he explains the
methodologies that FBI uses.

And he actually was teaching at Stanford.

He was teaching negotiations
at Stanford and he.

Compares negotiating with terrorists
from somewhere in Asia and to

asking your kids to go to sleep at
seven and it's mind blowing how,

how the same methodologies do work.

And the funniest craziest thing from
this is when I read this book for the

first time I was laughing because half
of the methodologies they taught me

10 years ago in Nashville, Tennessee,
when I started my, my sales experience.

So, so a lot of those things
were around or are around

and, and I'm using them daily.

Right.

So

Romeo: you also recommended design sprint?

Simon: Yes.

And the design sprint.

So for people that are thinking about
opening a startup or starting some sort

of a business or starting some sort of
a project the design sprint breaks down

really well, how you validate an idea.

Validated internally and
then validated on the market.

And I think they do it within five
days, which is amazing because a lot of

startups, a lot of companies are working
for a year on some sort of a product.

I did that.

I spent thousands of slots building my
startup because I just believed in it.

And then they spent two years
trying to sell it, but I

didn't validate it at first.

Right then.

And you know, then I realized
that maybe this is nothing

that people want to pay for.

They liked the idea, but then
I never asked the question,

would you want to pay for that?

Yeah.

Romeo: That's a methodology
that Google developed.

Right.

So it's

Michal: kind of, I remember Tim Ferriss,
if you guys are familiar with him, he also

had something in one of, I think it was
four hour workweek book about creating

Google ads for a fictitious product.

You have an idea for, and seeing if
people are reacting to it or not.

Yeah.

Simon: Yeah.

Testing.

Dusting.

So, yeah,

Romeo: I I think that's a brilliant
idea, whatever messaging you have.

I mean, at least it was when
Google ads was much, much cheaper

because now the demand is huge.

But I remember I met a digital nomad
from the Netherlands and he was selling

different PDFs, actually PDFs with how to
get a visa and how to live in Thailand.

Right.

So what the guy was doing is that he, he
was basically testing different countries.

For the Dutch market.

So he just set up some landing
pages, like seminar landing pages,

with different PDFs, with different
countries, with different pricing each.

And he just drives traffic to it.

And whoever, whatever PDF one,
he just invested more money in

it and he was just making money.

Off-grid autopilot.

And it was rolling selling PDFs.

So that was from the
Tim Ferriss idea, right?

Like just set up a landing
page and a Google ads.

That's it.

I mean, you don't need to do much.

I dunno if people today would buy
a PDF of how to get how to live

in Thailand and get visa, but
back then people were doing that.

Michal: So yeah.

People nowadays are buying
imaginary things, so,

Simon: yup.

Yup.

Romeo: Great.

Thanks a lot for this interview.

It was a pleasure to go into, you
know, these psychology traits of

different people and how to talk, how
to actually make networking And,

you know, the simulations were cool.

So happy to hear that.

Thanks a lot for this.

And we only touch tell us how
can people reach out to you?

Simon: Well, they can find me on.

Of course I am on LinkedIn.

So if someone just need to type in yes,
Simon Spanish as a Z at the end yeah,

they can go visit our website, Northstar
consulting and S C G group that CEO

or consulting group that CEO or they
can also go to our foundation because

we're running a foundation where we're
linking foster care kids with it

guys to do some training, to do some
educational programs and to help the

marginalized groups like foster care kids
or a rural area children to get into

the it world because, you know, yeah.

So, so the, the, the foundation is
called Hardy, so Hardy foundation.com.

So you can find me there as well.

Cool.

Michal: And if you're really lucky, He
might just luck knock on your door, trying

Simon: to sell you some very useful books,

Dick's alert and to keep your door open.

Michal: All right.

Well, I learned nothing from that.

No, I'm kidding.

No, that, that was, that
was really insightful.

And the same way that we learned about
marketing from George in the past and

how he helped open my mind to marketing
and not seeing marketing people as EDA

Romeo: you as the marketing skeptic.

Right.

Michal: I felt like I was going
through a similar journey here with

Simon, but more in the sales aspect
of it, of, of, of him sort of yeah.

Talking about once again, how to
do it properly, how to do it with

a more human focused mindset.

Romeo: Yeah.

For me, what was interesting is
when he was telling us about the.

Great of different people.

They were talking with us.

And I think that's super important
for us maybe to be aware of when

we start new conversations, because
different people have different needs,

they have different personalities,
and we need to adapt to that.

If we want to connect with people,
if we want to have a conversation, a

meaningful conversation, and we care
about that connection, then definitely

we need to understand the person better.

And also the silence
management as he called it.

That was really interesting.

Like in the simulation me, how, how
did you feel when he was silent?

Right, right, right,

Michal: right.

Yeah.

I mean, silence is golden, but at the
same time, science can be so powerful.

Romeo: Yeah.

And then the social connections,
like mentioning someone's.

And, you know, the community
or someone, this person knows.

That was also very interesting because
you relate to that, like, it's, it's

a familiar face even though he was
exchange student from, from, from Poland.

So that was quite interesting and how
this type of learnings, what he was

doing when he was student took these
learnings in today's world, working

with different organizations like
bolt and other startups and dot bay.

And I dunno, bunch of organizations and
how, you know, these people that still are

your mature entrepreneurs still have this
fear of rejection and how important it is.

Actually understand the
flow of a conversation.

Yeah.

Michal: And if you're afraid of sales,
because you're naturally afraid of

rejection, which is a normal human thing
just to understand that yes, rejection

is going to happen, but at the same time,
that doesn't mean that you can't improve

your process, improve your methodology
and improve your statistics or

efficiency, whatever you want to call it.

Romeo: Yeah.

So that was definitely another great
conversations here at growth gossip.

Yeah.

Michal: And one more thing,
build trust and be yourself.

That's that's what we
got to walk away with.

That's the, that's the
million dollar idea.

Billion dollar idea.

Yeah.

The

Romeo: ankle recommendation.

Yeah.

Michal: Yeah.

So if you take away anything,
build trust and be yourself, I

think that's just a good motto in

Simon: life.

Romeo: Yeah, that's true.

For sure.

So thanks for the.

Thanks for that guys.

See you at the next episode.

Cheers, ticker.

Michal: Thank you for listening.

Gossip was recorded at yolk
workspace and community.

Romeo: If you enjoyed listening,
please give us a share

Michal: or review on apple podcasts
or wherever you listen to us.

Romeo: See you next time.