Growth Gossip

Michal: This is the Growth gossip
podcast, where we talk about grow

Romeo: with what exactly

we are going to find out what's
behind is buzzword hosted

Michal: by yours.

Truly me.

How of yolk, workspace,
and community, and crack

Romeo: out and meet Romeo mine
on Monday, you had the mine.

Michal: Hey Romeo, who are we talking to

Romeo: today?

Today?

We are talking with Cartagena she's senior
manager, people and culture at Brainly.

Did you hear a Brainly?

Michal: I've heard of Brainly, but
I don't know exactly what they do.

I know they're sort of a big name here
in Krakow, but I'm really curious

to understand what they're doing.

Romeo: Actually.

They're a big name globally.

They are a educational platform.

It's basically you go and bring that calm.

You're a student, let's
say you're in sixth grade.

You want help with your mat?

And you put question how to
solve the some pythagora formula.

Right?

Right.

So somebody's there and
I'd be able to help.

And they have hold yourself

300 million members

Amazing.

I wish this resource was
around when I was younger.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah.

So the question is how do you run
people and culture and how do you

actually manage people in such big
company that is in over 35 countries?

That means 35 different cultures and
all this managed from 44 locations

and heck headquarter being here and in

Michal: cracker, I'm looking forward
to finding out more about it.

Okay.

Let's get into it.

Romeo: Hi, Kasia.

Welcome to the show.

Michal: Romeo.

Kasia: Hi.

Thank you for having me here.

Romeo: We are really curious about this
one because you have this huge company

here in Krakow for location now, right?

And it grew up.

Some people know Brainly
because of this growth.

Some people don't know Brainly at town.

Tell us a bit who is Brainly and why do
we need Brainly in this, in this world?

Kasia: Okay.

Yeah.

First of all brainly, you
know, accurate place to work at.

We are there just because 1.5 billion
students get stuck every day by learning

and we are there to support them.

We are a global platform where
people, students can get very

personalized and real-time help.

We are there because, you know every
students in the world would like

to have access to this personalized
learning and we are there to support.

Romeo: So just practically, because if
I remember when I was students I was

trying to get help from my colleagues
next you know hitting them during exams

with my elbow and trying to get help.

I dunno, maybe me how you
were much smarter than

Michal: I knew everything.

So I was the one getting hurt.

Yeah.

Romeo: Got it.

Got it.

So basically this hitting
with the elbow, right.

Helped me with my work went online.

Yeah.

And this is, this is what
brainly it does in a way.

Can you explain us a bit with this
analogy of hitting with the elbow?

Kasia: Yeah, sure.

So you know, there is an online
platform where you can, when you,

for example, have an homework to do.

And so you don't know a person that you
can help, that can help you actually.

And you know, we are working and
learning in this online world right now.

The pandemic kit it's even more

Romeo: So how it Kasia, like, just for
me to understand, is it Somebody else

helping those kids, like another person
from your company or another person

in this universe somewhere online.

Good question.

Kasia: Yeah.

Yeah.

So what's amazing is that there
are volunteers, so the volunteers

can be everyone actually, and
so they are just doing it because

they want to help and support.

Of course the content is actually,
you know, checked and there are

people who are overseeing the contexts
because we appreciate that there are

children over there and you know,
that the content must be checked,

but actually everyone can help.

And so a lot of people who are helping and
who are volunteers are teachers, or, you

know, previous teachers, teachers, other
students, everyone who would like to help

Romeo: So basically if I asks
Michal what's the Pitagoras formula.

Right, right.

And because I don't know it and
Michal gives me this formula.

I don't remember now.

But you from brainly, you will verify
if Michal gave the right formula, right?

Kasia: Yeah.

It's also about, you know, the content
of Being like, kind to each other

and the content of, you know, how you
answered the question if it's right

or not, but also how you talk to
people and how you how you answer it.

So we would like to make sure that, you
know, the answers are instant, so are

very, like very quick in answering,
but the answers are also right.

And to correct.

Romeo: Okay.

Got it.

Michal: Is it, is it through texts?

How are the interactions through
texts or is it just audio or video?

Kasia: Excellent question.

Because we are evolving
and we are glowing.

So it was around the
texts, mainly new bots.

We are up to tutor, like up
to that, the videos as well.

Right.

Romeo: Okay.

So initially it was something like Quora.

Yeah.

Like putting people where, okay.

Quora, maybe it's more broad because
you can have whatever questions,

but the replies were mainly on
texts and now you're evolving and

going into, into this video world.

Michal: And is this one-on-one
or is it perhaps a one volunteer?

I kind of also see them
sort of as mentors in a way.

Are they having an interaction with
one we'll call them a student or, or

could it also be like group of students?

Kasia: Yeah, it's, one-on-one mainly,
so first of all, we focus on this,

like a kind of a textbook, right?

So when you have, you know, your books
at school you would get homework

and we would know like what books
are used in many different countries.

And we could actually.

Kind of no, what students are going to,
to ask and then help them with debt and

after jets, we've noticed that you know,
some students would like to talk about it.

We'd like to dig in a little bit
more are actually more comfortable

when speaking to another person.

And that's why we've actually evolved
and gave more options in a way.

And it's gone, it's on
one-on-one basis mainly.

Wow.

But let's see where we are
going to be because we are still

expanding and, you know, we yeah.

In terms of the precedence 45 countries,

Romeo: 45 countries.

And that means that in this 35
countries, students can access

Brainly and get personalized help.

Yeah.

And you guys know, or the volunteers
know what's happening in terms

of education and textbooks and
so on and so forth in those 35

Kasia: countries.

Yeah, that's correct.

It doesn't mean that we have, you
know People like employees over

there, but we are there and can
support students in those countries.

Romeo: What keeps

Michal: The volunteers motivated
despite just having a big heart?

Kasia: Yeah.

It's mainly the big cart, but
they actually like collaborating

with with us as well.

I guess it's they development
and they grown as well.

It's the mission vision, but
also, you know, they, they learn

from, from each other from us.

Michal: Yeah, th it's so interesting
that we're talking about this because

literally this morning or the day before,
I think I was going for a walk and I

was thinking like, ah, I have a little
bit more free time from time to time.

And I was thinking.

I'd like to give back a little
bit because Romeo, believe it or

not, I, I have some knowledge.

Right.

And I was thinking like, oh,
I would love to be a mentor.

But at the same time I was thinking, I
don't know if I'm ready to, for example,

oh, Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6:00 PM.

I'll always be available to
mentor, especially a specific

group or a specific person.

I'm still not quite sure exactly
how Brainly works, but this kind

of feels like something that
could get my foot in the door.

Kasia: That's true.

Yeah.

I would like to talk to you.

I know

Romeo: you were an English teacher.

Yeah.

Michal: I have I could teach
English as a second language.

I have that accreditation, but I'm
assuming I could be helpful in other ways.

Kasia: Yeah.

Have you checked the
Brittany platform ready?

And

Michal: I haven't, I
haven't, to be honest.

Yeah.

But this is getting me interested in it.

Romeo: Yeah.

So, so I suppose with all, all the
children that now flat from, from Ukraine,

a platform like Brainly, it's amazing.

I mean, just saw today a news in CNN
about how professors and teachers in

Warsaw are trying to communicate with
these kids, even using Google translate.

And even by using Google translate,
it makes a huge impact because

it puts some kind of routine
in the lives of those kids.

And so.

Half of the refugees
are kids at the end day.

Yeah.

So I suppose in this moment, right.

One tragic moments where
someone can support you.

That's, that's amazing.

Right?

So out there, any listeners who
are you know, no Ukrainian or any

kind of maybe even Russian to help in
this situation, I'm brainy, I suppose

you have these languages, right?

Yes.

Kasia: Yes.

We w we do have this languages
and you know, we, at premier, we

support in many different ways.

I think it's amazing about this
company and about the CEO Barack,

because you know minutes that.

Wor started people acted.

So you know, where they're in the
burners borders helping people were

coming together just to make sure that
we you know, provide the the things

that, that people you know, wanted.

We were, we were there for them.

We were very clear about what is
happening as we took it also as

education And yeah, people, you know,
children are there and we are there

to, to, to help them also in Russia.

Right.

Because we, we think that you
know, people and students there

also need help and support and
we are still there for them.

So yeah, any way that we can, you
know, help and support we are there

it's a funny story because you know,
also it's, it's about students, about

children, but if I'm my dad's like
he said, okay I just talked about

another, like with another friends.

And she told me about this platform.

She was actually, you know, from,
from, from Ukraine and said that she.

Like her daughter use this platform.

And she was very, you know, happy,
inspired, and really pleased that

someone could actually help because
she wouldn't be able to help

her her daughter with some, you
know, homeworks or some, some task.

And you know, she, she was very
happy and my dad said, oh, okay.

So I will also check the platform
because my, I think my my

daughter works for this company.

So, yeah.

So it, you know, I think this is that
the friends that brainy makes in

the world it's educating, it's
helping, it's supporting, and it's

very, you know, close to, to the
values that we have at the company.

Well,

Romeo: it's nice.

So let's go a bit in, go a little
bit more deep into this, because

you can tell us a bit what you do
at Brainly and understand that.

More the culture at Brainly understand
a bit, what kind of people work there

and also understand your story a bit.

So can you tell us in a few words,
what's your role at Brainly and why

this role is needed in companies
and companies like Brainly?

Kasia: Sure, sure.

So my official title is senior manager
for people, operations, people,

operations is part of a people and
culture division let's say team at

springy and what my, my team and I is
doing is actually this hard thing of

People and culture, people, operations,
or HR which is, you know, preparing

the contracts which is compensation,
benefits pay role but also BP.

So business partnering to, to the leaders.

Romeo: So this means you're
helping just for us to understand.

So you're helping the leaders.

Leaders can be a team leader or a manager
or a head of department to recruit, to

do performance appraisal, to defeat.

W what

Kasia: exactly.

Yeah.

So recruitment is a
separate part so much at

We have a recruitment with a
department that is separate right now.

We do the HR administration as it used
to be Colt which is yeah, exactly.

When you are coming to our company to
work with us, we would sign the contract

with you would prepare the contract.

We would agree on the
terms and conditions.

We would help you with their benefits
will tell you what benefits we can provide

at brainy and where we'll manage it
from the administration point of view.

After it when there is, you know,
a salary review process or you be

recognized financially, There are
going to be us who would also, you

know, process each and, and sign
a new, I know adding them to the

contract with your, so this is that the
admin you know, the operations part.

And then we do have this business
partnering, which is probably

more com like controversial.

And there are a lot of questions
like what we do, and what's the role.

So if you, you know, I ask my.

Grandmother or mother, they
would probably don't know because

this is kind of a new role.

And then the role is different
in many different companies.

So I can tell you from my
experience, you know, what's what

we do and what we do at brain.

So as you mentioned, the the, the
apprise us we don't call them like

that, but you know, this is the feedback
conversations that we are having quite

often we will help leaders with them
in a way that you know, sometimes we can

expect some difficult conversations to
be happening, maybe a person you know,

it's, it's not really In line with, you
know, how they, how they are doing at

work and maybe, you know, that there are
some, you know, challenges or et cetera.

So it's all about the
conversation feedback and you

know helping managers prepare for
those for those conversations.

So that the feedback is well
received also by, by the person

it's not about the assessment,
we don't perceive it like that.

We, we just more perceive it as like
sharing the perspective and making

sure, you know, that people are,
are aligned with you know, what's

expecting what, what we would like to
do, but also hearing the feedback back.

So it's, it's a two way conversation.

But it's also about, you know, some.

Other people management let's say
practices supporting leaders with

the change with you know, with
Tim design, with you know, with

Romeo: what does it mean?

Like it's like how, what kind
of roles do you need in the

Kasia: team on?

Yes, exactly.

So what kind of roles are needed,
you know, taking the feedback that

we've received from, from people
and sometimes challenging managers.

Okay.

Do, do you really need like a senior
position in this company because

we've heard this feedback that's,
you know people are not really maybe

feeling that the challenges are there.

So is it senior or is it
more like regular role?

So I know talking about the.

That the roles, the structure, but
also reorganizing, you know as well,

sometimes, you know business and managers
would like to reorganize just to make

sure that the goals are delivered.

So it's a conversation
about how it's going through.

You know, taken by, by people.

What does it mean actually for
each and everyone in the team?

Are, are we predicting that they are going
to like the changes or not like what's

our, what are the strengths of, of people
and how they can be used after the reorg

What's the person, what are the person's
aspirations and career goals, goals,

and how it is, you know, taken into
account in the, in their reorg as well.

But it's also about the communication may
be preparing the communication roadmap,

ensuring that everyone I know, understands
everything like understands where, where

are we going and why are we going there?

So it's it's about

Romeo: that.

It's like a internal
consultant role, right?

Like you're consulting these companies,
not, not companies like internal

teams, how to actually organize
in a way they're they're workspace

and, and team, you know, in a sense.

Kasia: Yes.

Yes.

And you know, it's also supporting
the managers because they when the

company grow, it's a lot of ambiguity.

It's a lot of stress,
it's a lot of workload.

So it's also, you know giving them
the space to to talk, but it's also,

if it's needed in a company, it might
be also facilitating some kind of the

conversations or giving the space for
people to to talk, to share ideas, to

share, you know, experiences et cetera.

So, so

Romeo: this is the culture part,
because you said people and culture.

So the first one would be this
administration part operations part,

and the culture is this business.

And business partnering, right?

Yes.

Kasia: Yes.

That'll be it.

But the culture is
actually everyone as well.

It's also about recruitment.

Yeah.

Because, so when you, you grow, you
need to recruit the right people,

but they also see, you know, whether
these people would actually be

your culture ambassadors in a way.

So it's also in the recruitment.

It's not only the business
partnering it's of course CEO.

So you know, this person gives the
direction and is responsible also

for, for the culture, but we are
there to actually make sure that

the culture is there afterwards.

Yeah.

It's

Romeo: so how big is this team?

How big is the whole team
that manages all this?

I suppose, for all the countries, right?

Kasia: Yes.

Yes.

Depending on what team you are.

Actually you know, asking about the
business partnering is quite small.

We are free right now and
overtake overlooking like 400

you know employees globally.

So but we are recruiting person.

So if you are there, you know, listening
I would love to talk to you, so, yes.

Romeo: Okay.

So that's like amazing because you
need to four people or three people

now in the future for it, you need to
understand all the cultural differences

of those managers in all those, you
know, for all those 400 employees.

Right.

How do you deal with that?

Like from here, from, from.

Truck of like how one becomes,
so ha develops that cultural

intelligence so you can consult and
have the right business decisions.

So yeah.

Those difficult conversations don't

Kasia: happen.

Yeah, sure.

So to me it's about the anticipation,
like anticipate what challenges are

coming and so what we can expect, right.

But we are more in a
generalist role and we are.

See the big picture.

We see the team.

We, we are there to actually be part
of the team to understand what's

happening, to hear the feedback, to,
to actually know people, but also I

have the understanding of what tools
or what other resources can be used.

So for example we've opened a entity
in India and we could anticipate

right that the different culture is
actually to be present in the company.

So the company culture is our main
culture in a way, but we, we also need

to recognize that we are going to have
people that are coming from, from, from

different culture that we do not have
experienced to to cooperate with.

Right.

So And it's also in our feedback
taken from, it might be also the

feedback taken from, from the team.

So from our business partnering
perspective, we can feed back to

our other colleagues and understand
and sorry, and decide like how can

we how we, how can we move forward?

So what we did is actually we set up
the webinars on cross cultural you know,

conversations, communication, and culture.

Raise the awareness of you
know how things can be perceived.

It was you know, very practical talking
about, you know, even how emails are

written, like how, how words can be
perceived, how we can you know, H how

time is perceived by different cultures.

Right?

So it's about that.

It's about we, we also organize
the workshops so that people can,

you know try it's a try and so, you
know, see how how they can cooperate.

You know, it's a about kind of
a facilitating also some, some

meetings just for people to gather
together, but, and help them to

discuss the things that are not
working just to you know, talk about.

They perceive things from
different, from different culture.

So it's it's nothing
tangible, to be honest.

It's about just creating the, the
moments, the experience, the creating

the possibilities of people to to,
to gaffer and, and and to talk also

know when, when the war hit There
was this moment, you know, of okay.

So how, how, how we are doing
as an organization, how we

can be there and support.

So we, we fought about you know,
having that the webinars as well on

crisis management right, because this
is the, the, the crisis and managers.

They were over a month that
themselves, but they also, you know,

there was an expectation that they
would take care of of the team.

So BP role, just to come back to
the question is more like observing,

anticipating, em, emphasize with with
people trying to understand what are.

You know, the challenges, but also
the career aspirations, right.

And, and provide tools, resources,
opportunities to make sure that people

feel welcome, comfortable and feel that
they're growing in the organization.

Romeo: Yeah.

In my previous life Casha it
was also in human resources.

I was working in learning and
development and I worked one year

and a half in India in Mumbai in DHL.

And when I went there, it was like
very interesting because obviously

the, the cultural differences are
huge, but what really helped me.

And if I reflect now back to adapt
And what helped me to get the feedback

that Romeo, you are more Indian than
Indians now that you're leaving us.

So to get to that level it
was by curiosity.

And I think this is I,
I lived also in Vietnam.

Now I'm living here in Poland.

So in Turkey I was living when I was 19.

So I traveled around and gathered
this culture differences a bit.

But all the time, all the time, what
saved me was the sense of curiosity and

the sense of curiosity without judging.

Right?

So.

Really understanding.

Oh, you're so you are Brahmin.

What does priming mean?

How is Brahmin different
than I don't know.

Good.

Shirati and what sweets do you have?

What celebrations do you have?

What is the actual you know,
most important celebration

that you have or it's devalued.

So do you do something
different than Devalle Sony?

So for the valleys, the festival
of lights, it's let's say their

Christmas, we can put it that way.

So the idea of, I think developing
a sense of curiosity, which comes

within and more, most probably
it can be also developed with time.

These things of curiosity made me now
today when working with teams in India

on different projects, put away any
type, like put away any kind of fear

that, oh my God is a culture difference.

Just because I experienced
how to actually react.

Right?

So one thing I learned is that
you never, ever, ever go directly

in business discussions.

Like you leave a lot of space for
the personal matters and that's all

Asia is like a full spider, right?

Like everything is connected
to something and everything

happens for a particular reason.

That is no.

Just no connections to why
people became in a particular way.

But in a company like Brainly
growing that fast and dealing with

kids and with I suppose that's
super, super important, right?

So you recruiting and the company
recruiting, not you per se needs to

look a lot of this kind of things.

And I suppose, you know, mentoring
and teaching it is curiosity.

So how do you check, how, how, how is.

You know, in a recruitment process in,
in, or how did you develop curiosity?

I'm just a curious curiosity.

Kasia: Yes.

One of our values is
actually stay curious.

So I, I believe we are quite good
at it in overall as a company.

And yes, we are actually
in recruitment process.

We focus a lot on value
fit as, as we call it.

So we, we do have you know, w
w we do check whether people.

Can fry and develop in in,
in the company and whether the

companies is actually a good fit.

So first of all, it's the conversation
where we discuss, you know, somethings,

we are quite transparent of how we
are, but, and we would like people

to be transparent with us as well,
because at the end of the day, it,

it will work only in this case.

So it's about the conversation,
but we also have.

Demo days, not for every position.

Yeah.

Which is, you know, a day where we
spent together or they, or, or a

couple today by the or they were,
we spent together just to learn about

each other, just to get to know
each other better just to work on,

you know, some projects that's that
we are working on album everyday.

And this is

Romeo: this we mean, I mean,
we, somebody in the team.

Do you remember that this candidate

Kasia: would join, right?

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

So it's not only know a hiring manager on
the manager you know, talking to a person

and after one hour they would decide
whether they're just presenting well, join

us or not, but it's also about the team.

So the team have this opportunity to,
you know, to talk to the person and see.

So those are, you know, meetings
online nowadays where they would

talk about what's what's happening.

At the company, we are quite transparent
and open during this assess we've

been, you know, like the, the trust
in their Easter and we are quite

open and transparent and sooner.

Information with the candidates.

So that's the both sides, you know, can,
can see whether we would love to work.

So

Romeo: in this demo day, you
check this curiosity in a way

Kasia: it, yes.

Because we see how the person works.

So not only what they would do, but how
so we would check the, you know, the,

like the communication how they would
perceive the projects, how they would

approach the project, curiosity, or what
questions they would ask and you know,

how many questions they would ask us.

So yeah, basically how they work.

Romeo: I see me how you are recruiting
now, your first employee in York,

maybe a demo day could be a good way
to your recruiting community manager.

Right?

I don't know

Michal: what we're we
try to stay away from.

This might be a horrible strategy,
but so far it's mostly been me.

We've had two co-founders max
and I, and neither one of us

have had specific titles.

Because honestly in the beginning, max
and I, we didn't know each other, all

that well, and over the past two, two
and a half years, the responsibilities

and duties here at yoke, we've just
sort of organically distributed between

us because we, as we started working
together, we quickly realized what

max is good at and what I'm good at.

And honestly, it was just sort of
this natural, organic distribution,

which I know is not going to
work in a giant corporation where

you're hiring people quickly.

We're able to do it just because.

It's just us two and we just, now we
have kind of a feel for each other

and we don't even need to communicate
that much because sometimes just

I'll give max a look and he knows
what I'm thinking, you know, or yeah.

Or he'll do a particular body motion.

And, and I know what he's thinking about.

Let's say the situation that's
happening in the room, just because

we know each other well enough.

But now as we're looking for a third
person that's really difficult for us

to, first of all, define what we think
of that third person would be doing.

And it's something that we're kind of
struggling with, but getting back to

your original question, I think we're
definitely going to do something like

a demo day demo week, whatever, just
because for us it's so like our heart is

in this and we can't just it's for us.

It's not just like sticking
a Lego piece into this.

Like, I know I'm going to be working
day in, day out with this other person

and it needs to be a good fit on
many levels, you know, personal

levels, just communication levels.

It's just a, another, sometimes this
is just a matter of, do I trust the

other person, you know, do I have a
good feeling about the other person?

And sometimes it's unfair because I've
been wrong so many times where my first

impression of somebody was negative,
but then over time I got to know them.

And now, now I think that
they're a fantastic person.

So obviously my internal gauges are
flawed, but but still those impressions

matter.

Kasia: Yes, of course.

And at the end of the day, it's
going to be you and this person

who would work right together.

So it's also for this person if.

You are not comfortable working with this
person, this person would also fill it.

And so, so yeah, by demo day, you
know, it's demo day it's about

spending this day or two or whatever
is needed it's right together.

And actually try to, to work with with
each other and see how it would look like.

Yeah.

Michal: Because whatever assignment
or a project that you work on, let's

say during that day or during that
week it's very limited in its scope.

Right?

Really like your, your impression and
your observation of the other person.

And like you said, like how they approach
a problem, how they communicate, which

words they choose, how they ask questions.

I think that kind of adds more color
as to how they would handle other

projects and especially things that
Rare coronary cases, but you have a sort

of an idea that, oh, this person would
be able to manage it because they have

this, this, and this skill, you know?

Yeah.

Kasia: Yes.

And I think it's very
important what you've said.

It's how people think.

We also you know, like to focus
on that more while we talk with

people in the recruitment process.

So it's experience is one thing, you
know, expertize and, and you know,

what they did in the past, but it's more
about how they think that their mindset

and how they would approach a thing.

So we you know, talk a lot about that.

Like what, what they thinks about.

Things.

So yeah, what they think about things.

So that's that, and also the lack
of visits you know there was an

article actually a person saying about
illegal and given, giving a way illegal.

It might be also interesting for people
who are, are you know, expanding the

companies and, and for companies that
are growing because I like I've noticed

that people, when, when they grow, they
would need to take away some of the work.

Right.

And as you've mentioned me, how
it's very important for you so

that this person can do it right?

Because your heart is in this company.

And with the small companies, people like.

Everything they do a lot.

And they would like this company
or enterprise, like to, to grow.

And they would like to make sure that
the, that the legal tower that they

are building is built in the, in the
way that they think it should be built.

Right.

And when new people are coming they
are not sure, first of all, whether

this person will do it right.

And the second thing it's you
know, the feeling of, okay,

so this person is taking.

Something, that's a, you know, I
build it or, you know, it's taking

away that, that the legals, right.

That he blocks.

So it's a very strange feeling for
some, but also how we've mentioned that

you are not having the clarity of how to
split the work and it's happening all the

time in this, you know, small companies
that are growing, you know, either me,

myself, you know, we are expanding and
my team is also you know, growing and.

Yeah, there is a question in my
hats, in my teams you know, team

members I had like, okay, so how we
are going to split the work right now?

Am I still going to have, you know,
this important projects how

my role is going to evolve?

Why do we actually need this person
they're doing it, this person we

are overwhelmed, but really the
way, like, are we, are, we are sure

that we are you know, recruiting
and would like to have this person.

So, yes.

I think it's, you know, this emotional
piece is something that's BP and

TURBT is also, you know, thinking
about can anticipate and also can

support the business work as well.

Romeo: Yeah.

So if a company doesn't have an HLP.

Michal: No, not quite, but if I could
add, I used to work for a company

that I, I mentioned this in the past.

Like, I, I, I joined them sort of
before the company started, but then

full-time once I was about 20 people.

And then I left when it was 150,
but during that time, you know, I

saw sort of different stages of also
just how relationships change within

the company and people's roles.

But one thing that I kind of
kept because we didn't have a BP

person or something like that, or
at least it didn't seem like we did.

And one wall that I felt like we kept
banging into was just having w I, we

called the too many cooks in the kitchen.

And this was usually because those
four founders of that company, and

it felt like all of them impacted
every decision in the company.

And so when I would return a project and,
you know, hoping to get some feedback, if,

if this is the right direction or not, not
only would I get four different sometimes

perspectives, but sometimes I would even
hear perspectives from their partners.

So they would take like this project
home and ask their partner, Hey,

what do you think of this ever?

Then now I'm having some at eight
people, you know, and all of them,

somehow their feedback of looking at
it for 20 15, 5 minutes seemed more

important than me who was working on
it for a week, two weeks or a month.

And it was just a difficult way to work
just because it just felt like, well,

I'm never going to make everybody happy,
but somehow I need to please these

eight people or whatever it may be.

Yeah.

And then it just became sort of,
okay, I'll make this edit for this

person and this edit for this person.

And, and in the end you have this
Frankenstein, you know, which what'd you

lose is the original vision, but it's the
only way to kind of get it past, you know?

Yeah, I know.

Kasia: And why did you want us to please?

Anyone I've

Michal: oh, it's, it's it wasn't
about me pleasing anybody.

It's just because the only way
to get that project accepted

was to please everybody and

Kasia: in our way.

Yeah.

So I, I think it's also, you know a
challenge sometime when there are

too many people that would like to
be, you know, consulted in a way.

So If it's about making decision,
even if, you know, sometimes it's

deciding that, okay, this is the
person who actually makes the decision.

We can all, you know,
discuss you Romeo right now.

Or you may have right now are
making the final decisions.

But yes, it's a, probably it happens.

I Hmm.

You know, me being in HR, being in people
I consult a lot, but after it, you know,

for example, there is an person who is
making decision is, is, you know, define.

But yeah.

Romeo: So I suppose in those moments you
need that HRPP when these things happen

to facilitate and consult sometimes.

Yeah.

Kasia: They managed, they didn't add, I

Michal: don't think it
was a sustainable model.

I mean, w in that case, w what.

Preferred was to in the beginning of
whatever project or assignment, the set

out clear goals that you're trying
to and something, you know, something

that you could actually measure,
not just, oh, I like this, but clear

goals of what you want to attain.

And if you're able to create
a solution, that's able to hit

those numbers, those statistics

Romeo: then.

Great.

So in a stage of growth, when
do you think an HRBP is needed?

Because we are talking right now, we
had the clear example with me, how of a

company that needed maybe a distraught,
but they didn't have it, or maybe they had

it, but it didn't feel that they have it.

But still we are talking
here about growth.

So what do you think like
companies need this role at what

stage it's at the beginning?

Is it something that they
should start hiring when they

hit the particular number?

Kasia: The role is needed?

When you know, the, the people that run
the company feels that it's it's needed.

I do believe, you know, that the
person from people perspective from

HR is needed from the very, very
beginning, but it can be one person

playing different roles, right?

Because you wouldn't need HRBP like
position or role when you have like, I

don't know, 20 people, or it might be a
person from HR, from from people, but

who has this holistic and, you know, view.

And it's curious, as you've mentioned to
is curious about the strategy where the.

Business is going by the sorts of
curious about people and you know,

what kind of a balance between
the, the goals and, and, and the

business strategy and and the people.

So usually, you know, that the BP's
role are there, but there are not

named as, as BB from the very beginning.

Romeo: So I want to open the topic
around corporations and on the other

side, more like startup companies,
like tech companies, you know,

the sexy companies that grow fast.

And before I ask you, the question
is small story time just to build

up the good, the reason of this
question, I I was when I was student

I was in the student organization.

I sick.

I was five years in this organization.

It was a long time ago, 2008.

And back then, if you would
ask any of us, like, to which

company would you like to join?

Yeah, we had in our mind,
Electrolux, DHL all these, you

know, Ericsson, this big Corpus.

Yeah.

And now in January I went to an
IC conference in inhering Poland

with all the students from and
the members from from Poland.

And we were having a session.

There was X members and
I made a game with them.

Simple question.

Asking them, if you like
cats, go on the ride.

If you like dogs go into left.

Right.

And I'll say, put the question.

If you would like to join a big
corporations, go on the right.

If you would like to join a small company
going to the left, believe it or not.

Almost everybody went to the
left to the small companies.

And I was like, wow.

You know, I was shocked down and
like so there is this trend, right?

That, oh no, the evil corporations,
we are not going there because they

will lock us in a, you know, in a,
in a frame and we cannot go out of

this frame and we cannot be creative.

We cannot do.

I argue with them because I learned a lot
and today doing my business is because

I learned a lot from corporations.

You work in corporations, but then you
moved to to, to Brainly, which is this

sexy tech company at the end of the day.

Why this trend, why we were like that
in 2008, we moved to this now, why

wouldn't I join a corporation today?

If I would be recent grad versus.

Tech sexy company, right?

Like what I have to lose if I join
this, this, this would be my questions

or more questions, but we can go

Kasia: through them.

I think it's about the purpose.

I would guess.

I don't know this student.

I didn't have any

Romeo: purpose.

In fact, 2008, like I did
a though, I just knew that.

Okay.

What the learning and
development, but had no idea,

Kasia: you, you haven't thought about
the purpose of like what I thought

about the purpose of the company.

Right?

So maybe it, it was more back there.

It was more about the security and
safety and feeling, you know that, okay.

That back then corporations
were sexy because they

offered you good compensation.

They offered you, you know, Joe.

And right now people are more focused
on, you know, purpose what the company

is doing, how they are doing it.

It's more about the social
corporate responsibility.

And, but it's also about the autonomy,
how I can grow and say, you know, what

is my impact in in the organization or,

Romeo: but how did we get here?

Why did, why,

Kasia: why do corporations, I think
just from, and, you know, there is a,

probably the narrative and the the
perspective from people working for

corporations that are not satisfied
that, you know, are put into the process.

I think, you know big corporations are
very processed and they, they need it.

They, they, they would need this,
they need this processes, but.

People feel kind of like closed in a way.

So they are responsible for
a part of a, of a process only,

and maybe they wouldn't feel, you
know how they, how they grow there.

But some, some people are okay with it.

I mean, they I think it's about
the personality and how, and

what you would like to achieve.

So,

Romeo: yeah, but I still have this
questions of I'm not convinced,

I'm not convinced on one thing.

If I would be now not graduate,
you need to know about the idea.

So are just to, to, to be
even more practical, let's

say Romero is 22 years old.

It has two offers, right?

Smart guy.

Did a bunch of interesting things as
student organization travel, yada yada,

yada, it has Culpo as one hand, you know,
let's even, don't say PPO, not business

process outsourcing, let's say global
talent program in which I was in DHL.

Right?

Like they moved me in different
departments to learn about

the corpo much more sexier.

Yeah.

Much more sexier than
being in outsourcing.

Let's be honest.

So we have that as an option and we have
then a sexy company, which is branding.

Yeah.

Why wouldn't I choose DHL in
this sense, in this global thing

and choose Brainly can be one,
I dunno, Estimote, you name it.

Any other sexy Krakoff Company.

Yeah, because there are
a bunch of them there.

So I'm, I'm just wondering even today,
I don't know the answer of this.

Why would I choose you know
tech, small, smaller company

than this big, giant corporate,

Kasia: what you would like to

Romeo: do?

I don't know.

I'm not sure yet.

I really don't know.

I want to grow as an individual
and I'm asking myself what

could I learn from this?

And what could I learn from the other

Kasia: company?

Yeah, sure.

So probably in, in, you know, in, in
big corporations there are processes

that are, there is structure.

You would he you'd have
more clear understanding of.

It's going to be your role
and what's going to be your

career progression, right.

Whereas in in brainy or other startup or
scale-up as we are not startup anymore.

So that your role is going to be bigger.

You will you know, your
tasks and responsibilities,

responsibilities might differ.

The smaller organizations
are changing all the time.

They are evolving, they're changing.

They're very nimble agile.

And you can actually create somehow
your role and to what you are responsible

for in a way, right in and you will
also, you know Impact a lot, you

would have this impact for sure.

In a smaller organization.

Because we are, we are
still evolving and growing.

Whereas in the, on the other hand,
I'm, you know, I'm not opposite.

And corporations are good as well
for people who would like to learn

the structure and the learning of
the processes and have it in mind.

Yeah, it's not about it's somehow it's
about the safety as well, but, you know,

Romeo: yeah.

I mean, the funding that happens now with
these big startups and scale-ups, eh, it's

it gives you that safety net, I would say,
like, it's not like in the past and you

know, you had some funding, the funds
run out and then you're out of a job.

So these sexy companies became
also safe, you know, in a way.

Kasia: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's also about the autonomy,
you know, about the way people

interact and work with each other.

It's about the personal touch.

It's about the, you know,
people know each other.

They, if, if it's a startup.

You know, gaffer together, they
would know the personal stories.

They would know each other
as, you know, as friends.

Whereas in incorporation, you
wouldn't probably know, you

know people that, that, well,

Romeo: yes, I suppose it does depends
on speed of growth that you want.

Right.

As a person.

I was talking with in another episode
with my brother who works in cloud

and I, and he was saying that you go
into holiday for two weeks and you

come back and the team is different
because the growth is happening so fast.

Right.

So that means that you need to keep up.

Some people might be overwhelmed by

Kasia: by this.

Yeah, definitely on the, you know, on the
darker side, there is a, you know, a thing

when you join a startup or a scale-up
and you have free month notice periods,

the, the role and responsibilities
might have changed already.

Right.

So you're talking about different thing
and you joined the company and it's okay.

We are actually in a different direction.

Michal: I was also thinking about
the fact that, you know, in the past,

what might be attractive to people
about joining a big corporation

is the fact that you automatically
have these amazing resources.

Right.

But now due to advancements in
technology let's say somebody

who's starting a YouTube channel
can be equally or even more.

And then a big new station
that's been around for ages.

Yeah.

And I think there's a lot of excitement
about that, that technology has leveled

the playing field in certain industries.

And I think for many people, this can
be pretty exciting because why jump on

this old dinosaur, which is just going
to remain a giant dinosaur, then I could

sort of create something of my own and I
could be just as big, just as impactful.

And I don't need all these
resources in the beginning.

And what I think is also very pivot
pivotal for, for maybe this generation

is you have the sense that you could
hang onto your identity without selling

out on your identity and things like.

I think that's also pretty valuable.

Kasia: Sure.

So on this technology base I think
when we talk about engineers in

particular, when joining your own
corporation, they would probably, you

know, work on, on the old technologies,
et cetera, but whereas in startups

and scale-ups, we actually have this
new technologies that they can work

on, it's very important for for them.

Yeah.

Romeo: I would like to go back a
bit to your story because I want to

understand, or I want the listeners
to better understand how do you

get to be senior manager in people?

Like how, if somebody would like
to have similar path as you career

path what were the steps like?

What did you do?

Did you go some certificates?

Did you, you need to do some roles.

How do you get to this?

Kasia: No certificates, but you'd
need to I think learn and be

up today, be curious talk to
people, have mentors and you know,

Romeo: each role, like each
role in HR, like you started as

a recruiter as far as I know.

Kasia: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I started as a critter.

I always wanted to work in
Asia in people in culture.

I, I studied and HR and you
know, studied in, in the UK.

I wanted to somehow work for
the global company the day.

So AMS it was my first organization
and recruitment position was,

it was the first role that I had.

I really enjoyed it.

But I was always, you know, curious
and what's, what's out there.

What's, what's there, what's happening
in the, in the HR world how we

are evolving and I wanted to be
close to the, to the business site.

Let's say not only, you know, because

Romeo: it's outsourcing
mainly as Alexander months.

Yeah.

Yes,

Kasia: yes, yes.

It's RPO.

So recruitment process outsourcing.

So first of all I worked on the, you
know British market for, for England

and morphed into and to work for one
of our clients from financial sector.

And then I moved into internal
recruitment as it was my dream

Romeo: RPO.

It's a recruitment process outsourcing
basically you have a, let's say a

big corporation, let's call it a.

I don't know, British telecom and
British telecom wants to have

a bunch of recruiters, but they
don't want to have it internally.

So they externalize it to Alexander Mann
solutions, which is mainly in Krakow.

And you have like, from, you know, people
who find candidates online, sourcers to

people who scheduled a recruitment with
those particular managers in British

telecom and maybe someone who is doing the
screening, the first filtering, and then

passing it over to the British telecom.

I just named it.

I have no idea if British telecom is their
clients just full disclaimer had no idea.

Michal: Thank

Kasia: you for that.

Yeah.

And they are also investing
in technology right now.

So that's, you know, technology
can, can schedule the, the

interviews and robots, AI and stuff.

Yeah.

So yeah, kind

Romeo: of a

Kasia: orange, right?

Yes.

Yes.

Then I went to orange as I you
know, wanted to to work as an HR

business partner, meaning having
a, more like a holistic view.

So, so you know, HR is
kind of different, so they

have different departments.

It's a safe, mentioned the people ops.

So the HR administration
it's what is very different.

You need to be an expert
in an employment law in

how to prepare contracts.

In a, you know, how to
deal with the payroll.

So it's very, and you need to be
detailed, oriented it's recruitment,

where it's more about, you know
understanding people and psychology.

Then you know, it's
learning and development.

Eh, it's more about understanding
that the training needs and how

people are developing and making
sure though you, you provide

the resources for for people.

But it's also this business
partnering thing, which is actually

overlooking like everything
is is kind of a part of the team.

Be very close to the managers, like
seeing what's happening in the team.

And then it's, it's a kind of a, a face.

Of HR to to, to the business leaders,
people, and then figure it out like how

to support managers to, you know, and,
and people with they, if they call.

So I just.

If you want to be more specialized
in, in in something it's probably

more the other part of the HR, if you
are more HR generalist and what to

overlook things and having the, the,
the, the, the bigger picture is probably

more that the BP role and manager role,

Romeo: which means that you
need to somehow touch each

and every department in oh

Kasia: eight, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you are not a specialist
in a way in anything.

I mean, maybe the employment
law you need the best specialist

right now probably never accepts
of recruitment, but but then.

I need to understand people and then
understand what HR tools or systems

or processes that you can employ.

Yeah.

Romeo: So now when you recruit for your
team, how important is the university

or how, because you, you finished this

Kasia: university.

Actually, I finished the university,
I studied HR and then I went

to the post graduate studies to
study like HR business partnering.

So yeah, when I recruit to my team,
I wouldn't look that much like the

the universities, but I would always
look like On the severe, how the

person is, is is, is progressing.

But it also what courses they would
have, what studies they would have.

So is it HR, was it
psychology or sociology?

Was it, you know, other studies for
me to understand the picture and

the, and the path of, of this person,
but, you know also to understand.

Curious, but also how how curious
this person is and how they would stay

up to date with what's going on in
the, the systems in the in the HR.

So you know, some people would
have certificates or studies in

employment, law in law or they
would you know, go to conferences,

they would get LinkedIn certificates.

They would, you know you would
see in the, in the CV or LinkedIn

profiles that they are constantly,
you know, learning things, which is

for me personally, very important.

So but not necessarily, I
wouldn't necessarily know have it.

Romeo: And are there some books or
some kind of leaders subject matter

experts that people should know and
should follow in this, in this field?

Kasia: yeah.

So when it comes to books There is
no I mean, agile people is the book

that I would choose agile people.

This is the book that's I would choose
from just to have the, again, overview

and the bigger picture of how HR, but
also how the business is operating

from, from this agile perspective.

But also, you know Hmm.

Th th the business related books.

So for example, when I joined brand new,
I had the corporation experience as I

said, people said that I had the startup
mindset, but, you know, I didn't have

the experience in smaller organizations.

Right.

I also had the experience with the
students community like you did, but

I haven't worked in the, I didn't
work in the small organizations.

So for me, the, the, the books that I read
at this time, it's more about startups.

Scale-ups just to understand the
culture and how they are thinking.

So so for example, a lean startup, or
you know, from zero to one, like the

books about scaling about startups I'm
also into, you know, leadership and how

people can, can work with each other.

So the mind of the leader is
another book that I really

liked the and the talent wins.

This is not the very new book, but
still, I think it would position HR

in a way that's that I'm, I'm seeing

Romeo: it.

So did you go into this trap, like,
did that nonfiction, you read more

nonfiction Mo books than fiction books,

Kasia: nonfiction books, like

Romeo: Yeah, like more, like
more let's say business books

Kasia: then.

Yes.

I'm very boring.

I'm boring.

Romeo: I went to that trap.

So like only business books.

You mean how any non-business
books that you can read?

To

Michal: be honest, I've
never read a book in my life.

That's not a joke.

Romeo: Like

Michal: yeah.

I've, I've never finished
an adult book in my life,

Romeo: so.

Okay.

So mainly or recent podcasts, I

Michal: listened to a ton of podcasts and
a lot of them are on economics, sociology,

behavioral science all over the place.

Yeah.

Design startup culture pitching
and whatever, but I just don't read.

Romeo: Oh, okay.

Different people learn differently,

Kasia: right?

Yes.

For sure.

You know, I climbed rock
climb, but also climbed.

So the, the, the book that
I also recommends, which is.

This list related, and I cannot
remember the name in in English it's

training, spinach cover, which is
also evolved the mindset and how it

worked when you had to climb app.

So it's, it's very interesting,
but also, you know, books around

philosophy psychology of course,
because it's people but philosophy.

It's yeah,

Michal: I'm imagining you climbing up this
very high rock and you know, on one hand

you have on the rock and in the other,
you're holding the book, you're just going

up and just figuring it out as you go.

But yeah, it's just,
just my mental visual.

Yeah.

Romeo: Cool.

Thanks a lot for the, for this
interview, it was a great one

great conversation and I hope to.

To continue this discussion when Brainly
hits even bigger numbers and to see the

journey in, in that case, making even
bigger impact to 70 countries, right.

Growing from 400 to thousands and
discussing then how this HRBP role

evolved and how you got from four people
to maybe, I don't know, who knows 20

people being internal consultants and
in the end, your cause is brilliant.

And what you do, I suppose, that we
should all support it, especially now

in this difficult times with some of
the kids that are without school.

So thanks a lot for the,
for what you're doing.

And for the, for the mission
of this company is great.

I just

Michal: wanted to add.

Hopefully we have a lot, lot of smart,
insightful listeners and I encourage

you all to consider becoming a volunteer
for Brainly and, you know, touching

someone's life in a very positive way.

And yeah,

Kasia: thanks.

Yeah.

Thanks me.

How for this notes.

Romeo: Yeah.

Yeah.

She had done the brainly.com and
subscribers volunteer and if you need

help, they will help you for sure.

Thanks a lot.

Kasia: Thanks.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Romeo: So Michal, how,
what did you learn today?

Michal: Oh, well of course I
learned so much from Kasia, but I

also learned that you have a lot
of experience in Indian cultures.

That, that was, that
was insightful for me.

Romeo: Yeah, I think in, in a company
like, like Brainly, the cultural

intelligence is so important and we
talked about curiosity and how one

of their values is stay curious.

And I bet that any startup out there
or scale-up like that this has 400

people and they're still growing.

They need people that are constantly
curious because by being curious, they

are actually coming up with new ideas.

They are being more agile and they are
actually challenging that status quo.

And only by challenging the status quo
of let's say education system in, in

their case, you can be so disruptive
and they are a platform that changed

disrupted the educational system in a way.

Can you imagine.

Knowing and understanding how
the education system is in 35

countries, 35 countries, no way.

I mean, on a larger scale, you can
even be consulting the ministries of

education because you gathered so much
data about that particular country.

And, you know, at the ground level,
what those students struggle with,

that you can gather this data,
you have huge amount of data.

You have volunteers, you have all
these guys that really understand the.

The problems and can go to
those governments and to, to,

to the decision-makers it's,
it's just, it's just amazing.

And also attire that there are people
that they just help, like they just

want to help kids, the volunteers.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think the whole platform in a
way is that's the main product, right?

Like the volunteers at the end of they're

Michal: creating the content in a sense.

Yeah.

And I also liked something
that seemed very logical.

It was with the hiring process.

She talked about demo days and it, it,
it seems like such an obvious thing to do.

But it was interesting that she
focused on during these demo

days or demo week to not only.

Have that potential employee to be working
on a assignment or, or a project and,

and seeing if they're able to complete it,
but also seeing if how they approach the

project, how they're thinking, how they're
communicating of those things, giving

you insight into how good of a fit that
person can be within the organization.

Romeo: Yeah.

And definitely the books
were like agile people.

I think it's something that people
should look up if they are in HR or

they want to go in HR or they just
simply have a startup now, or there

are managers that will make people
understand how to run this operation

side in a smaller organizational.

Scale-up not necessarily
this big corporate.

So that was a good, a good learning,
and we need to translate the, the

name of the book that she recommended
with the climbing and mindset.

All right, well, that was a good one.

See you next time.

See ya.

Michal: Thank you for listening.

Gossip was recorded at local
workspace and community.

Romeo: If you enjoyed listening,
please give us a share or

Michal: review on apple podcasts
or wherever you listen to us.

See you next

Romeo: time.

See ya.