Growth Gossip

Michal: This is the growth gossip
podcast, where we talk about grow

Romeo: with what exactly

we are going to find out
what's behind is buzzword

Michal: hosted by yours truly Michal of
yolk, workspace, and community, and Krakow

Romeo: and me Romeo Mann,
founder of MAN Digital.

Michal: Hey Romeo.

So who are we talking to today?

Romeo: Today?

We are talking with Daria . She is working
at this company called grand parade.

And

Michal: do you know Daria?

Yeah,

Romeo: actually she was
my ex boss at Electrolux.

We were working in learning and
development, but we will go in more

details about how you are growing
this huge tech company here in

Krakow and was the experience of
being acquired by another company.

Actually, it's funny stories.

She wanted to go in a smaller company
and then she ended up in this big company

that got acquired in the meantime.

So it will be interesting.

Let's get into it.

Hey, Daria, I will come to the show.

Welcome to growth gossips.

Hello guys.

hey Michal.

Hey, so this would be a good one
because Daria was my ex boss in

Electrolux ages ago, ages ago.

Yeah.

And we were working in
learning and development team.

What does that mean for you?

Yeah.

Michal: Learning and developments.

Yeah.

I'm assuming it's about in
a sort of accompany setting.

I'm assuming it's about how to get
your, the employee, how, how to get

the team to progress their, their
skills, their knowledge that, you

Romeo: know, is that isn't that correct?

Daria: That was a large part of it.

I would say

Michal: that, that seems
like common sense, but I'm

sure there's a lot, lot more.

Romeo: So Daria for the
audience, how would you describe

learning and development?

Daria: So, yeah, learning and
development is about men helping.

So the department would be dealing
with, well, any programs that

are designed to help the employees
grow and to change the company

culture into the culture of learning.

Many companies are aspiring to, to that.

Usually within a department like that, you
would also hold processes connected with

like performance management, any any kind
of assessment of the performance of of,

of the teams, individuals in the, in the
teams as well as talent processes as well.

That was part of part of what
we've done at Electrolux as well.

Romeo: So basically.

In, in other words, we were helping the
managers in electronics facilitating.

This is I think, a better world to
better assess different competencies

of their people with different
skills behaviors, even at one point,

so hard skills and soft skills.

And then trying to facilitate
the development of that.

And this facilitation can happen through
seeking for third-party trainers or

organizations or inside the organization.

Right.

Michal: W would that also involve
after let's say an assessment to

change somebody's role into something
that might be a better fit for them

or, or is that a rare circumstance?

Daria: When we're talking generally
what you could do within learning

and development, that could
absolutely be one of the scenarios.

I don't remember cases of us actually
being involved in anything like

that, like that, but back then, but,

Romeo: but the theory is there.

So either way, so Dahlia
was the one that told me.

I see, remember Romeo, you need to
build your own company because here you

put too many questions, told you that.

At least that's what I want to remember.

So in a way you pushed me.

So thank you for that.

So now we are back here and you
are head of people of grand parade.

So what does this head of people mean?

Because.

That don't know this HR world and
look at your LinkedIn would be okay.

So is this a cult that had

Daria: a fever?

So I'm, I'm responsible in grand parade
for everything that is people related.

That's the area that is very often, I
mean, referred to as human resources.

Not that I really like that phrase.

I prefer to think of people as
people, rather than resources.

Something very happy that our company
has actually changed the naming.

But well, I'm responsible for everything
that is connected with people.

So from hiring them so
how we employ, not my.

Recruiting directly, we work with
a third party to do that, but in

setting up the strategies for looking
for talent, how we brand ourselves

everything connected with the employee
experience as long as they are with us.

So we work very closely with
the line managers to well

advice on any, any cases.

It's about really well, how we develop
talent, how we develop people, how will

we build the right culture in the company?

How we engage the teams, how
we make it work in general.

I mean, we wouldn't be able to do
what we need to do if we didn't

have you know, we, we, the highly
performing and engaged teams.

Romeo: So I think we have a few
topics here because I would really

love to go into the organizational.

Because we had a few episodes where
we talked about organization culture.

So this is interesting perspective
from a bigger corporation, let's say.

And also I would like to go
back a little bit to this

transformation that you mentioned.

So in the past it was
human resources, right.

And I suppose when companies were calling
human resources, it was because of a

particular culture in those organization.

And then this transformation
happened to people, right.

And you'll like it much more,
how, how does it differentiate?

How do you see, you know, do companies
really behave differently by, you

know, just mentioning resources versus
people, or is the same thing, or it's

just a naming thing or how do you see.

Daria: So for me, for us, I think it
was just changing the naming convention.

I mean, I've been with the company
for five and a half soon, six years.

And like I'd never really seen us
treating people as human resources.

I think it was always there.

We were just somehow
slow to change the, what

Romeo: are the differences?

What would you say would
be the differences?

Daria: I mean, so when you're talking
about people, department people team,

it, it really means you take them in,
you really take people as the heart

of the organization and do you know,
it starts with them and it's all about

how engaged your teams are compared
to, you know, here's our biggest

priorities and how do we need to plan
resources to deliver on these priorities?

Right.

Michal: How would you define engagement?

Because that's something that you've,
you've mentioned several times.

Daria: So engagement is how, for me,
it's about how to, what extent people

really care and really identify with
what they do and the company they work

for, how passionate they feel about what
they, what they do is it just it's work.

Just, you know, a place they come
to earn the living and go home.

As soon as they finish what is
required or would they actually,

you know, go one better.

So we say Electrolux to make sure
that, you know, they, the company

grows, but they grow with it as well.

Michal: Th does that encompass sort of
a sense of belonging and a sense of.

Ownership what'd

Daria: you say?

Absolutely.

I mean, both of these, both of
these words are very important.

Also for, for us owning is, is
one of our company culture a

company values and it's yeah.

I mean, I can't imagine an engaged
person without this feeling of, of owning

owning it, whatever they do, whatever,
you know, happens in the workplace.

And what was the other one?

So belonging.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I mean, if you do not feel like you
are a genuine part of the organization,

I mean, you're never going to get that
level of engagement to, you know, truly

truly do, I mean, be your best at work.

Right.

Michal: Cause that on a team level
that also allows for more collaboration

because you actually feel like
you're not an individual who's

just hired to do a specific role,
but you're sort of working in this

ecosystem and you want that harmony.

Yeah.

Daria: And look how much more difficult
it became now when you know, for the

last two years we've been working mostly
remotely people, haven't had so many

face to face interactions teams you
know, for longer periods of time,

didn't have that direct interaction.

It's been so much more difficult to
make people feel that they, you know,

they really, truly are part of a team
rather than you know, individually.

Drink their beat in a project,

Romeo: but let's go back a bit to when
you started working with Granbury,

because that's an interesting story.

You were telling me that after
electronics, you were ready to join a

software house, a smaller company, because
Electrolux is huge and join this small

150 or how many, 130 people organization,
you know, have see the impact that you're

having through your job much faster.

Let's say, because let's be honest,
it's a smaller organization.

So how has that.

Daria: Yeah.

I mean, so the, the whole decision
about moving, it was about growth.

It was, I mean, I was taking on a more
responsible role moving from a role, quite

similar to the HR business partnering
role within Electrolux to a role of HR

manager in in grump rate, responsible
for the function in a software house that

well didn't really have any HR before.

So that was a big challenge.

I was slightly afraid of it, but
decided to take the first person in HR.

Okay.

Well, not exactly that there was an HR
manager, there was an HR manager before

she worked there for a couple of months.

And then, well, she actually
recommended me for that for that role.

But for that, for this couple of months,
she actually only had possibilities.

You focus on recruitment.

There was just so much work.

There was so much work connected
with recruitment that so many other

things, I mean, it didn't even start.

Romeo: So you thought that you go to
this small local company, but actually it

grew in two years, it doubled the size in

Daria: two years, right?

I mean, well, the funny thing was that
I discovered on my first day or second

day on my second day, I was told that.

The software house, the owner of
which I met a few weeks earlier,

the whole software house is now
being bought by a large company.

So I'm not going to be on my
own doing the people stuff.

I actually saw on that day too,
I met my new manager who was

the director of of the HR
department back then at William Hill.

And I mean, we actually, we really I
guess we trusted each other from day one.

So it really, it really helped.

This was, I mean, this was surprising.

This was really not expected.

I mean, I was going to change the
environment completely going out

of the corporate world into more
of a start up kind of organization.

Well, but it very quickly to, now that
I'm back to the corporate world, but

to be honest, like I think it turned
out only only for the good for me.

I mean, I was definitely able to use the
experience I've had from my previous jobs.

So

Romeo: walk us through, because for sure,
we are curious and also the audience,

how does a fast growth like that look
like when you're in the middle of it?

Right.

So doubling in two
years, it's quite a lot.

So what do you do as
an, a new focus first?

Like at one point, but what point
you focus on organizational culture?

What point you focus on just recruitment?

At what point you focus just on,
I dunno, learning and training

and all you do everything at once.

So how do you prioritize?

Because for me, it's like super
hard to comprehend such growth.

Daria: Yeah.

Not, not that I have an,
you know, like ready recipe.

I suppose, I mean, when, when we
did prioritize recruitment that

was obvious we needed to grow fast.

That was an expectation from the new owner
from William Hill that we that we're

going to take on many projects many more
than we were able to to take initially.

So recruitment was a huge priority, but
at the same time well, we, we knew that,

you know, we need to develop other things
and be ready to have all the all the

people on board when recruiting, you're
able to take care of the culture already.

Well, and first of all, I mean,
the organization I joined.

Had a culture, a strong culture, right?

So it was a question of how do we keep the
best of it and how does it need to change?

Because it is now part of
a much larger organization

Romeo: to blend

Daria: somehow that exactly.

But it's not like, you know,
you start from, from this trach.

And I I have to say, I mean, I
always liked the grand culture,

the culture of interpreneur
shape of ownership of having fun.

So I'm really glad we've actually
managed to keep quite a lot

of it for all these years.

Romeo: Okay.

So when we talk about this culture
and you blend it in with recruitment,

I suppose it's like you are looking,
what type of people does this culture.

Yeah.

And what type of people
we recruit on this, right?

Is it, yeah,

Daria: it's what kind of people you're
looking for, but also what kind of

people you ask to recruit, right?

Who are the guys that you
show to the candidates?

What kind of language they speak?

What kind of behaviors can be
observed because then, you know, that's

the message to the market as well.

And some people would accept the offer.

Some people will not also based on,
you know, what they see, what they hear

and break the, during the interviews.

So

Romeo: how do you do this blending of.

Okay.

Additional culture.

Did you have some kind of
external trainers consultants

or you did it internally?

We're there some conflicts there,
because I suppose it's also

cultural differences, right?

Like one is British, you mainly
had to Polish here, right?

Yeah.

Daria: But at that time it was mostly
Polish people that has changed a lot

over the years recently, we've hired a
lot of people from all over the world.

But yeah, five years ago we were
mostly mean also the team here in

crack war Polish, a couple of Ukrainian
people maybe, but yeah, we were all

quite, you know, had quite similar
background how we didn't really bring.

Like external trainers or facilitators
to learn us to teach us or learn

with us how, you know, how, how
we take this culture forward.

We have, however, I mean, one thing
that has helped was how we focus on

actually making sure the teams work
together, that we work across locations,

that we were not just attack, hop, left
alone in crackle to do their own thing.

But we really, really close with the
other offices and people from crack

over traveling a lot to the UK to JIP.

And, and guys from were coming to see us.

And sometimes it was
just a couple of days.

Sometimes they stayed for a good while.

I think your phone's on how
do I eat to not disturb?

Okay.

Romeo: Yeah.

So what, I'm also curious about that.

If, if you would, let's, let's make a
scenario in which you, you would mentor

a startup that was just acquired and
this startup has their own culture.

Then you bosses the big guys who
bought them different culture.

What would you advise this startup?

Not to have huge conflict with the
big guys and the other way around.

Daria: Well, I guess the
advice would really be to, I

mean, get to know each other.

People are not that different when you
really sit down and start talking to them.

Now, if the cultures were completely
different, w was well, I'm not sure.

One thing, well, to be honest,
this one thing that you can

always you can always expect.

And I would probably share
that with the startup.

Some people will leave some of, even
some of your really good, I mean,

some of your high performers will
leave because they will not like

the culture after the marriage.

And you need to accept that kind
of, not everybody, the company will

be changing and you, I mean, you,
you need to let some people go.

If they are not happy
with the direction, then.

I mean, you, you will find the
new, new people who will get along

and who will help you rebuild the
company with the kind of new idea.

Romeo: You mean, how had
the similar story, right.

You worked with the corporation and then
they were getting bigger and bigger.

And then how was that for you?

Michal: It actually even happened.

So where I used to work at it was
a company here and I should say my

former bosses they were working for
a company that was, I dunno, I want to

say like a hundred, hundred 50 people,
something like that, maybe a bigger.

And they had their office in this and
that here in Krakow and some bigger

French corporation bought them out.

And as soon as that happened my boss.

And a few of his friends who were
working at that same company,

they recognized that there was a
big shift in the company culture.

And they also had this epiphany
that they have enough skills, enough

knowledge to potentially at this
point start something of their own.

So the four of them, each one of them
sort of coming from a different part of

the company services, product sales and
sort of operations, they all just sort

of left that company, started their own
thing, sort of in the similar industry.

And they started growing that.

And so I joined them pretty
much in the beginning first.

So it was just very, very much part time.

And I joined full time
when it was about 20 people.

And when we got to around 56, I started
noticing like a change in the culture.

It just, you know, there'd be new
people showing up and I wasn't sure,

Hey, is this guy here to clean the air
condition events or is this like one

of the new top developers, you know?

But definitely once we got over
a hundred and I remember we had

this one Monday when we had 10
people show up 10 new 10 new hires.

And I just remember everyone just
sort of sort of looking around

like, Hey, what's happening here?

Romeo: You know, it's bad.

Like then, I mean, for me, that's cool.

Like awesome.

Michal: I think there was a sense
of excitement about it because

obviously it's a sign of growth
and but at the same time, it's,

it's changed and I think people.

And depending on how you're feeling
or where you are at and things.

But, but also sort of starts creating
more expectations because now all

of a sudden, there's probably more
pressure on management to, to make

sure that those projects are coming
in and, and, and all that stuff.

So I don't know for me, once I got
to over a hundred I just didn't

feel like it was my place anymore.

Also my role began to change.

It became much more specialized where
in the beginning it was sort of like the

wild west and I was doing version one
of everything and it was pretty exciting.

So there's just a lot of, but, but
later on, it just became more and

more people became involved and.

We would often say, like there's
too many cooks in the kitchen.

And

Daria: that, that sounds familiar.

Like I remember the shock for some
of our people had, when they used

to do kind of everything in the in
the project themselves, they would

deploy to production themselves.

And suddenly there were all
the other people that needed to

get get involved and they didn't
quite know how the system worked.

They didn't quite know all the guys.

So it was upsetting for some

Michal: I think for some people they
do find in that sort of specialized

role, but I know myself that I like
having that sort of freedom to make

mistakes, but make them on my own without
other people or, or, or waiting or

having that sense that someone else is
waiting for me to finish a part of my.

No, I, I sort of prefer to sort of try
to have this sort of chaotic mess in my

head until I'm finally have to deliver
whatever I'm supposed to deliver.

Like that works fine for

Romeo: me.

Yeah.

That's, that's a different
way of learning and growing.

And this is actually what we want
to discuss here in this spot.

Constant there, if you are this
type of personality, like Umi,

how it's you, you learn totally
differently and you need a particular

organization in which you learn.

And some other people have
you know, they need order.

Right.

So, and this is this takes
me to the next question.

You saw this transformation, were
there some type of people that you

guys were hiring at the beginning
when you were growing and did

that change or it was all the way.

The same

Daria: one big shift.

I I have definitely noticed was when
we were growing, we were absolutely

super committed to only hiring
the best of the best and the super

Senor very, very experienced guys.

We knew that ground parade was,
I mean, it was really important

that we, we have a lot of skills.

We have very strong team.

To be able to deliver on the
projects we were able to deliver

and we needed to scale quickly.

So it wasn't the right time for us
to be hiring juniors, for example.

And a couple of years later, I
mean, I think it was four years ago.

So after two years, I've managed
to convince our senior leaders

that it's time to start looking at
emerging talent programs and start

looking to get onboard some interns
and then, you know grow them.

So some of the interns who started with
us this for three, four years ago are

now well, senior developers, right?

So.

So, but it wasn't the right.

It wasn't the right moment initially,
to be honest, like I was I was in the

position from the beginning that we
should be allowing some junior people

into the teams, but there was quite
a strong pushback from the business.

I would say initially they didn't
believe they had space for that.

It was like, let's grow the teams first.

They need to be seen for enough to have
the competencies, to to mentor others

and say, that was probably right for us,

Michal: correct me if I'm wrong.

But I would assume that people who
are more senior or are sort of more

established in their ways and maybe
less likely to adapt to, to a new

environment or worry, or you were
you hiring people who you felt senior

people who you felt would be a good fit.

Daria: Yeah, it was looking for people
with who would be the right feet.

But also I think the tech
environment, the tech community

is actually quite adaptable.

I mean, all these guys are actually quite
open to learning new things, trying new.

Exactly.

So it wasn't like we were not too
afraid that when hiring seniors, we

will get people who will always want
to do things as they used to do them.

Right.

Because they were exactly part of
their motivation to change jobs was

to learn how to do things differently,
how other businesses do them.

And for us hiring seniors was
a way also to learn from other

businesses, how they do things, right.

I mean hiring people who can bring
the expertise and can share, they are.

Romeo: Okay.

So I suppose that at the beginning,
you just basically need to create that

foundational skills and competencies
on top of which you can later on

put these mentoring programs with
more juniors let's, let's say, or

Daria: interns.

Exactly.

I mean, it's still, the majority
of our teams are quite experienced,

but, and so we're going to be doing
another internship program this summer.

And the idea is every intern gets
to a different team and they are

just, it's just one intern in a team.

Okay.

So they're going to be surrounded by,

Romeo: so how are the teams structured?

Like how many people are in teams or

Daria: how is it depending on
what they work on, but it's

like five to maximum 10 people.

Romeo: Okay.

So if, if somebody wants to join grand
parade, like I'm at a D state, right.

And we are looking at, I suppose
they are technical skills, which is

pretty much obvious, but to fit in
the organizational culture, what,

what are the things you're looking at?

Daria: It's definitely growth mindset.

I mean, people really want to need to
want to learn, be open to ideas, be

happy to explore new opportunities.

Be very open for collaboration
with other people.

I mean, communication skills
are super important here.

We would be, I mean, as obvious as
it sounds, but I mean the ability to

speak English, it's really crucial for
us because the teams are international

and without, without English, I
mean, there are many tech companies

in Krakow who would accept people.

Kind of basic English able to able
to, I dunno, read more than talk.

But like for us, it's
actually really important.

Romeo: So I'm curious now you're
still working remotely, right?

Daria: I mean, the office is open and
we are encouraging people to start

coming back, but like, it's not going
to be it's never going to be like,

you know, we're back to the office.

And Edward w we were there kind of
expectation is 20% of the time in the

office, but it's not even like every week.

It's not like, you know, you need to be,
or a day in a week, just 20% in general.

Right.

Romeo: I'm just wondering, like
when I was an intern and if I would

need to work remotely, it would be
super hard for me to even get you

know, Somehow close to that culture.

Right.

Because I'm just trying to think out
loud being at home and saying that

I am in an organizational culture.

Not really because I cannot
engage with those people.

I'm here with, with the things
I have and, and that's it.

And then I go in this course
and people talk to me about

engagement and culture and so on.

And I, I don't feel it because I'm here.

So w how did you, how did you manage that?

Because as head of people in
these two years of pandemic,

Daria: well, as, as well as we
could, we were trying, trying

to organize spiritual things.

We were working with leaders and
upskilling leaders so that they can

actually engage with the with the teams.

And, you know, I mean, the thing is
you learn, you can learn about the

culture when you hear leaders talking
about engagement, about company values

and so on, but you mostly learn about.

It actually a regular team meeting
in regular conversation with

other people from that company.

This is where exactly this is
where the culture really happens.

Right?

This is what you this is what you see.

So it's sort of like they were separated
from, from it totally, but obviously

it's a very different experience.

So the people we've onboarded during
the pandemic, couldn't fully get

the grasp of, of what it means to
work for grand parade William Hill.

And that's, that's the point of now
encouraging people to start coming

in and for the teams to, you know,
regularly organize team days in the

office so that they can actually, we
can, we can actually start creating that.

Romeo: 'cause, I'm getting a lot of
feedback from people that they don't

want to go back to office, like.

'cause yeah, it's much more comfortable.

I know don't need to commute.

I can wake up like 15
minutes before starting work.

How you as head of people, how, how you
encourage this, what, what do you guys

plan to do to get people back to office?

Daria: So, one thing that the only thing
that I believe will really make the

difference is how the teams organize
themselves, making the, coming back to

the office every now and then worthwhile.

I mean, we can be, and we are organizing
events, you know, or bringing pizza in

doing funny stuff, but it only works
for, I'd say 20, 30% of people who

are likely to come back to the office.

Anyway, they like being
in the office anyway.

Right.

So the only thing that will help
people change their mind, those

who actually prefer staying at home
is if the experience coming to the

office actually is valuable for them.

So if they have really good interactions,
if they really see that the team meeting

face to face help them create better
ideas, that they've learned something

new, that they have fun, but like not
fun and not just playing a game, have

fun, you know, working as a as a team.

Well, or maybe just, you know,
having coffee in the, in the

kitchen with the, with the team
or some team members and just.

Experiencing, you know,
it's just different.

So

Romeo: the social part, but by the
way, how do you guys get people to,

Michal: I was going to say this, cause
I always went when I I'm over hearing

people speak on this topic of like
I was talking to my former boss, I

went for a run with him and he said,
ah, me how I'm having trouble getting

my workers back into the office.

And I want them at least half of
the time, like hybrid whatever.

And as he's talking about it, cause I,
I, I used to be as part of that company.

So I know those people and I'm just
thinking like, wow, cause currently

right now here at yolk, we are full
we're at full capacity and we have

people who are coming to us and
paying us to be in a, in an office.

Right.

And and, and somehow we've
managed to fill up our own.

All of our desks and other spaces.

But I think what you said, it's, you need
to make it worth their while to come.

They need to see the value in it.

And A big part of my role as I see
me sort of trying to encourage and,

and sort of support the, the personal
and professional growth of my members.

Obviously I can't touch everybody in
the same way, because I don't know

everybody's needs and preferences
the same way, but, but that's why day

in, day out, I tried to nourish the
relationships that I have with my clients.

Obviously, some people are, are a little
bit, we just click more than others

and, and therefore I'm able to, I think
to have a bigger impact on them, but

I'm constantly looking for ways to.

Give them a little boost, a little
nudge professionally and personally.

And a lot of that just means
having them in the back of my mind.

And when I come across something
that I'm reading, I'm watching a

conversation that I'm having with
somebody, or I meet a new person or

just an opportunity sort of pops up.

I think I could connect this
idea with me wash, oh, I could

connect this person with Tom.

And then I'll go to them and
say, Hey, I have this deal.

What do I do with this idea do with
this introduction to this person, what

you want, but I'm offering this to you.

So I, I see a lot of the
value that we create.

It's not fast internet and a
desk and a comfortable chair.

It's, it's really us connecting
people with other people

and connecting people with.

That way they could just sort of

Daria: but this networking cannot
happen that well, if everyone is

remote sitting at home men, for sure.

Could somehow

Michal: I think another question
that I had for you was I imagine

that between home office and office
office, that different personalities

shine in those environments.

And I often think about like introverts
and extroverts and, and just, just

because I do a much, much better
when it's one-on-one conversations

or one on two, but as soon as it's
like one on 10 I just sort of get

lost and I'm sort of overwhelmed.

Cause I don't know where to focus
my attention and I just kind of shut

down and I just become very, very
passive in those types of inbox.

Daria: I'm not exactly sure if that's
the rule that, like, I see that some of

our colleagues who came to the office
regularly for all these two years, the

office stayed open all the time and
people could come if they prefer it.

So some of them are probably quite
introvert, but still, you know, it was

maybe easier for them to have that
clear bond boundary between the home,

the life at home and the Bo and, and
and their family life and work at home.

And, well, actually, I mean, if you're
an introvert and you leave with your

family in a noisy flat, you may actually
really prefer to come to the office.

And she was a quiet, I mean, she's a quiet
corner and just have your eight hours.

Coding in peace and quiet.

Michal: Right.

Especially if the office is
20% occupied or whatever.

Yeah.

Romeo: Yeah.

So I, I suppose there are different
personas here at the end of the day

because people who come to a community
and a workspace like yolk, they are

more individuals, freelancers people
that maybe are even looking for clients.

Right.

I remember when I started seven years
ago that I wanted to go in these

communities because that's how I
network and I will find clients versus

organization companies where you
don't need to worry about this fact.

And also maybe the, there are more
people with families in, in, in

organizations like grand parade then,
you know, individuals and freelancers.

Right.

So maybe that can be also a.

I'm just thinking out loud regarding the,
the personas that are in coworking, right?

Michal: From my experience like,
cause obviously in the, in the

first few months of us having
yolk, I had my sort of perception

of, oh, I think we're only going to
attract people like this and this.

And I thought of it as
a very narrow range.

But as I think about my
members now it's different.

Romeo: It's,

Michal: it's all over the place,
which is, which is wonderful.

That's how I like it.

And secondly, I don't
know what the second was.

But yeah, it's, it's, it's all over the
place and, and, and I think everyone

is just somewhere on the spectrum
and, and just something pushes.

Over that ledge to, to commit to something
like this, or even to, to dabble in it.

Like, yes, we do have dedicated
desks, which are sort of more for

people who come to us every day, but
we also have people who are paying

monthly fees for a dedicated desk,
but they only come in once a week.

But for them, that type of
arrangement makes sense to them.

And we also have people who don't
need a desk, they take advantage

of our sort of cafe space.

And they'll come in and maybe just once
a month, once a week or every day, but

they, they want to be around people.

They don't need a desk.

And they just, they just want that
sort of hum that white noise of, of

people who they sort of see regular.

About the same time.

They don't have any
responsibilities to them.

Like one great example for me was we
used to have this one young woman.

She was working in the financial industry,
doing audits and things like this.

And she bought a membership at yoke.

She was coming in.

And I remember her telling me that she,
her office is five minutes away from ours,

despite that five minutes walking, despite
that she liked coming to, to yoke because

there's nobody looking over her shoulder.

There was nobody by the coffee machine
who was going to say, Hey, when are

you going to finish this and that?

Nobody asking her about stuff here.

She could focus on her work
because it's a work environment.

She sees other people doing work.

But at the same time, she's, doesn't
have all of those obligations

that she would in the office.

Daria: Hmm.

That's really interesting.

Yeah, I would say, but kind of in the
companies that like us embraced the

hybrid, working now with majority of
the time actually being at home, I don't

even expect people in the office being so
super productive for me when they come to

the office, I want them to spend as much
time at the coffee machine as much time

chatting to the colleagues as possible.

Right.

They will catch up with the regular
work when they're back home.

The best use of the time is
actually when they when they

network, when they collaborate,
when they are with other people.

Yeah.

That's

Michal: what I've been hearing more
and more about people talking about

the future of an office, of it being
much more of a lobby of this sort

of open space of flexible space.

It encourages, encourages collaborative
work and, and and just for people to

sort of meet, to do different things.

One more thing, because earlier we
were talking about why you need to

make the office worthwhile to come to.

And I remember hearing this from somebody
who was working for a furniture

company, an office furniture company.

And he said something like, if, if
you are able to get your employees to

have another friend in the office,
you increase their productivity, you

increase their sense of satisfaction
like 70% or something like that.

Just by them having another
friend in the office.

And I often see myself as also sort of
playing matchmaker and trying to get

people, connected people who I think.

Have the potential to be friends.

Daria: Yeah.

I think it makes a huge difference.

Like, I mean, you're going to be
looking forward to coming to the office.

If you know that you're going to meet
people who are your friends, rather than

just the people you happened to work with.

Yeah.

Michal: And like, in this sense, like
you're not trying to connect that one

per one person to this giant culture.

You're really just trying to get them
connected to at least one person which

is usually a much easier thing to
do and, and going to create a much

stronger bond than trying to create
them with this universal culture.

Romeo: Yeah.

W w what's interesting, at least in
our company, small company, like we

are 12 now, but we didn't work online
that much and we are a digital company.

Right.

Now after, you know, the relaxations,
actually everyone comes every day to work.

They from time to time work from home.

And we did that because we
felt that in our field, we

need to learn things very fast.

And for that to happen with
juniors, we need inspiration.

Right?

So usually inspiration comes from the
seniors and the fact that, and also

maybe I don't know, in marketing the
personality of the social connections.

Super important.

Right?

So because all the time you
are trying to do this social

connections, at least online.

So you feel like you need
it also in, in offline.

So yeah, so what, what we looked at
is learning how fast can we learn?

And we realized that growing a home,
especially at the beginning of your

career alone, it's pretty much hard
because you need a lot of guidance.

You need a lot of directions daily.

Right.

How do you guys do that?

How do you grow the interns?

How, w what programs do you have for that?

Because for us, this has
got, feel like no process.

Daria: Yeah.

And I don't think, I mean, W we live at
to the teams actually, how they do that.

And you know, the last two groups
of interns were brought in during

the pandemic with restrictions,
with teams, mostly working remotely.

And I don't know exactly how they
structured that I'm not going to

pretend, but the feedback I have is
that the interns who were onboarded

remotely are, are as good and has
grown as quickly as the previous ones.

So that didn't have a huge, it didn't
have a huge impact on how quickly

they've they, they learn and they,
they have to do it differently.

There had to be different ways
of interacting interaction of how

we how we chart the knowledge.

But yeah, they were able
to still still learn quickly.

So that

Romeo: means your recruitment processes.

To find some people that you know, grow
fast, even in an environment like that.

Daria: And I suppose I'm in P we
also have people who are really

glad to share the knowledge, right?

It's not, because one thing is in to pick
the right people to be your two, to be

the interns that are joining the company.

But the second thing is to just make
sure that you team them up with those

who really want to really want to share.

And we have, I mean, just wanted
to comment as well, kind of go back

to what we were talking about, how
we were when we were talking about

these different personalities.

Right?

So Mihail said, you know,
all different types of

personalities in a yoke right now.

I'd say exactly the same here.

We have a variety, we have
a variety and this kind of.

I want to go back to the office or I
don't want to go back to the office.

We ha we have a mix.

We have like every, every kind of
attitude and an interesting thing about

like exit interviews when people leave.

And some of them, we ha we had people
saying that they decided to leave

because we want them back because
like this 20% is just too much.

They don't ever want to be in the office.

And there are companies who offer
poorly remote options, and this is

what they are choosing very enough.

You know, the company has
different expectations.

They have different expectations.

But an interesting thing is I
also talk to a person leaving us

who said, he's actually living.

Because we're not bringing
people back to the office.

He's tired of the empty office.

Nobody just talked to.

And he is actually joining a company
that is working that is back to

the office and they expect everyone
to be there most of the time.

And that was super interesting.

Right?

You will have people
dissatisfied on both sides of it.

Romeo: Yeah.

I suppose we all need to adapt to
this new workspace and people's

expectations towards that.

Michal: I think going back to the very
beginning of the conversation when

we were talking about human resources
and people it's when I think people,

I think just seeing people as humans
and being aware of the fact that.

People humans, we vary so much in
terms of what motivates us, what, what,

where, where we gain satisfaction from.

And like as I think about my members
and I, as I walk through the different

rooms and floors every day, just to make
sure, making sure everything's all right.

It used to bother me, for example,
when I felt that certain members were

not as engaged, but now I've just
sort of learned to accept it, that

that's just them and their engagement.

They just sort of show showed
their engagement in different ways.

And maybe I haven't tapped that
or maybe I just don't see it.

But I've just sort of grown to
accept the fact that I can't accept

everybody to be super enthusiastic and,
and, and joking around all the time.

And that's sort of made things
a lot easier for me because I

just don't stress it anymore.

I no longer do I think, oh,
they're not having a good time.

They're having a good enough time
because they've been with us for a year.

If something was not right.

They would have probably
moved on to something else.

So, yeah.

Romeo: But now at the end, I would like
to understand a bit for the audience.

How do you become a head of people?

Like if someone here listening would love.

Be at one point because
it's a cool, cool job.

Like you care about the
growth of the people.

You recruit them, you look at the
engagement, your organizational culture.

It's it's

Daria: oh, have I have I said
that it's also more of the

kind of down to earth things.

It's also kind of, I mean, I'm also
responsible for things like the

people will, I mean, the documents
that administrate HR administration,

I would still call it right.

For this, like all the contracts
and, and things like that.

Getting people paid on time.

Yeah.

It's also part of, I mean, my suppose

Romeo: don't do everything alone, right?

Daria: No, I don't.

I do have a really, really good team.

Romeo: So how do you become a head of.

Daria: Yeah, so kind of, for me, and
I think in most cases, most people who

would who would have similar roles
you grow within the area quite often.

I mean, I started in recruitment and
I think a lot of people, this probably

the easiest, I mean, there are quite
many opportunities for people to

start their career as recruiters.

So that, that's how I started.

Romeo: And because, because you talk to
a lot of people, you understand them.

Why, why this recruitment
is so helpful for

Daria: at the beginning
and you start building.

You talk to you, you talk to well you
talk to the candidates, but you also talk

to the managers who represent the company.

So you start understanding
both perspectives, right?

The employee, the person working
in the company, but also what

the company needs and so on.

So this is a good place to start.

I'm not saying that only one, there are
people who start in different places.

But that was my beginning.

And starting with an agency or
a recruitment agency, getting

some consultant experience with
other people related projects

which were like, I mean, yeah.

Development centers.

So assessing people's competencies,
I mean, a number of projects.

Then I actually moved in-house
and that's actually my story

of moving to electronics.

It's also very interesting because
electrical was one of my clients.

When I worked in the agency I
get tests a really famous famous,

old crackle recruitment and
consulting a consulting business.

So I was working for electrical
X for a couple of years and had

really, really great relationships
with their hiring managers.

They're like something I have
never seen in any other company.

Like they would never treat me as a,
you know, just a recruiter working

there for a fee, but someone they worked
really closely with so more, less.

I mean, we felt like I was external,
but it felt like it felt like, you

know, we're one team working on the
same objective or getting the right

candidates for the roles, rather
than me being a consultant out there,

working there for money and they just
need to chase me for CVS and so on.

We really work together.

So, and that was so different to any
other clients that I was like, I just

love the culture at that company.

And when the opportunity came to move
to Electrolux in house I I'd use it.

So, but, well, the nice thing was
when I moved to work at Electrolux,

I already knew a couple of thousand
people there because I helped,

I even recruited my boss there.

No, no, no.

They're not asshole.

Basically.

Like one of my last projects I done
for electrical X was recruiting the

HR manager and then the opportunity
of her notice period is quite long.

So in the meantime, there was an
opportunity to join that team and

someone else recruited me, but
at some point it just turned out

we're starting on the same day.

Oh well, so that was super

Romeo: interesting.

So, so you actually started recruitment
and then learning and development.

Yeah,

Daria: I mean, so initially in
Electrolux it was still recruitment.

So I moved as a recruiter but now
I'm working directly at Electrolux

and then A transformation of the HR
function came at Electrolux and we moved

the SEPUP from working in a local HR
department for Electrolux into a shirt

service center, doing HR for the group.

And this is how I lended.

I wanted to try something new as
recruitment was, you know, I

mean, I've been in the recruitment
business for a good couple of years.

I wanted to try something new.

And this is how this is how I've decided
to give a try to learning and talent.

So

Romeo: basically you need to
touch to get ahead of people.

You need to touch different
areas and then aspire for dental.

Daria: I suppose, I mean, it really
helps to get to get experience in

different in different aspects.

So kind of when working at Electrolux,
at some point, I was like, okay,

there's one area which I know very
little about, and that was rewards.

So how you pay, how you decide on
salaries you know, how do you work

with market data benchmarks and tone?

So this was something that I prioritize
at some point I knew this was going

to be another important element.

Romeo: If you would be 22 now
and wanting to still go in HR.

Daria: I mean, the funny thing is I
always knew I'm going to end up in HR.

Like, I mean I think even
when I was preparing for.

Final exam in secondary school.

I knew a kind of, this was when I
decided what I'm going to study.

And when I was choosing psychology
as my major at university,

it was from the beginning.

I knew this is psychology,
but to work in business.

Romeo: So, so let's imagine
this diarrhea is 22, 23 in 2022.

Yeah.

Right now.

And you are aspiring to
be head of people, right.

You heard this podcast and you
thought, okay, this is a role

that would be good to go to.

Do you start the same?

Like, do you go to a small
consulting company before you

join a bigger organization?

What, what, what would you do?

Daria: I suppose at the moment there
are even like more when I was starting.

The job market was really tough getting
my first job was like a real challenge.

And like couldn't afford
to be picky at that time.

At the moment, for example, I think,
well, so we have a junior member

of our people team in grand parade.

I think she has a great start
actually, you know, working with me,

working with such a cool company.

No, but I mean, she gets
to touch so many processes.

So I think, you know, if I wish I
had an opportunity like that, I mean,

working inside the company and being
able to see and experience and help

with so many processes in a company
that has mature people function that

I think that we, that can really give
you a good cake at the start of your

Romeo: career.

Of that is luck or hit-and-miss and
how much is like being aware of, okay,

I'm choosing a disorganization because
I will have great managers because

this organization has these processes.

So this is what I'm trying to ask.

If you would be 23 now, how
would you make those decisions?

Like, how would you choose?

It's just maybe just hit and miss, like,
whatever comes along, let's go with that.

And then maybe I am lucky as
your colleague, what's her name?

Daria: Swell.

Romeo: Diarrhea.

Yeah.

So maybe Dahlia is like lucky, right.

And ended up being in, in
grand parade or maybe not.

But how, if you would advise
someone, how would you choose that?

What would you look at?

Daria: I wouldn't say it's
just a question of luck.

It's good to have an
idea what you want to do.

Keep it flexible.

Keep it over.

Romeo: Like, would you check the manager?

Like, would you go on LinkedIn and
say, okay, who would be my manager?

I want to understand

Daria: more about, I would definitely,
I have always looked at the manager.

I mean, who they are as, you know,
an important element of my decision

of do I want to work for them or not?

I mean, who do you work with, who
you work for has a huge impact on

how much you're going to enjoy the
job and how much you can grow there.

So for me, that that's always been more
eat, probably the most important factors.

So, and I'm not sure if it's,
you know, what you can read in

on LinkedIn, but the conversation
you're going to have with them.

I would, yeah, I would say, I mean,
as as a person starting to build

your career, always make sure that.

I mean, it's not just, you
know, do they choose me?

Do they offer me the job, but kind of
make cautious decisions as well, where you

want to work, who you want to work with.

So remember that you were the one choosing
as well and make the right choices, use

the opportunities that come your way.

Well sometimes they will show up quicker.

Sometimes you have to, you have to
wait, I'd say kind of, so my career

has definitely not been a rapid one.

Like I haven't been
changing jobs very quickly.

I haven't been, it's not like a
story of, you know, someone being

promoted every two years and so on.

But like, I, I think I've I've been
really growing my skillset and my

experience very, very consciously.

And that pays off.

Romeo: So would you recommend
some certifications or how,

like if somebody wants to.

The idea, for example, before getting

Daria: started.

So there are some really good postgraduate
studies at the moment, like in HR,

when you can learn about everything
that is happening in this people space.

So some of, some of them have
really great great opinions.

So yeah, why not?

I mean, and your name, some

Romeo: that you comps in your mind?

Daria: I better not because
some others will get offended.

Romeo: So these are by
universities, yellow,

Daria: basically.

Yes.

Some of the universities, some of the
private universities in in Krakow,

other cities as well, organize them.

So so that's, that's one good
option, but nothing is as valuable as

experience you're going to get hands
on, but no school will replace that.

And.

I would discourage people from doing one
postgraduate studies after another one.

And after another one, unless they are
able to use it in practice already.

I don't think it massively

Romeo: helps.

So this role, is it important?

It's post graduate studies or
it's it's preferable, right,

but not necessarily required.

Daria: I don't think you need it to
be able to progress your experience

and the actual skills are going
to be probably more important,

but it gives you a good overview.

I mean, in the, in how quickly
things run in business, kind

of your manager, your mentors.

Be able to show you everything.

So if you can tap to the experience of
people from lots of businesses, prepare

preparing, you know, really interesting
cases because that's, that's how

this these courses are usually built
that, you know, it's all just theory.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

It's lots of case studies you get to meet.

Not that I have done.

Any of the, so like I've beat my career
without doing any of this HR HR,

postgraduate studies, but I would
say, yeah, someone, someone starting

now can really, really benefit from
hearing about best practice from lots

of companies and getting the network.

Actually the network is what
really what is really important,

how you get how you get.

I mean to exchange your your ideas.

This is something so I I've this is
something I am quite passionate about.

I think 10 years ago, when I was
still at Electrolux with a colleague

of mine, we started a group called
hi Ravya which is a very informal

group of, of HR forks in in Krakow.

And I think it's, yeah, it's about 10
years now and we still meet regularly.

I mean, there's new people who joined
some people, you know disappeared for

a couple of years and then joined again.

But this is how I get to
exchange ideas and yeah.

And to learn all the

Romeo: time, it's like a constant
learning in it's like you guys do

open coffee here in CA CA can you
tell them a bit more about how.

How it's open coffee and maybe,
maybe how a company like grand

parade could participate in a
community or events like open coffee.

Michal: Sure.

So open coffee Krakow is an event
that's been happening for at

least five or six years in Krakow.

Yolk has only been around for
two, two and a half or so.

And but we were lucky enough to bring
it over to yolk and open coffee is,

is meant to be sort of a business
friendly business networking event.

The first hour just basically allows
everybody who shows up at eight o'clock

in the morning, which not everybody can do
to share what they're working on what

challenges they're encountering maybe
how they could help others who are there.

And Yeah.

And it's usually just like a two,
three minute pitch and that's

the first hour everybody from.

And it's a lot of their students,
ambitious students, I would

say there's solo preneurs.

There's some consultants, there's
some startup people there's even some

angel investors that show up and the
second or hour or half hour is just

sort of mingling and people just sort
of exchanging information and it's,

it's just a pretty casual environment.

And yeah, so we're, we're
pretty happy to have it at YOKA.

It happens every second
Thursday at 8:00 AM.

So if anybody's interested, just search
Facebook for open coffee, Krakow

Daria: sounds great.

How many people usually attend?

Michal: I would say around 20, 25 lately.

Yeah.

Yeah, which is pretty much
the capacity of our clubhouse.

So we're happy,

Daria: right?

I'm not sure if, if we were inspired by
the open coffee the original crack of

open coffee, but at grand parade, we also
have something called open coffee and

that's that's something I do with our
site, either Tomac where basically what,

every, what we used to do that every week.

Now we probably lost a little, a
little the re regularity, but I mean,

we're, we're just inviting people for
coffee to have an informal chat, ask

whatever questions that they want.

And and so on.

So that, I mean, we changed the.

Communication pattern from us,
talking to people at town halls,

still online townhomes now, and people
asking us anonymous questions, using

online tools for asking questions
to actually, I mean, let's sit down

and have a proper conversation, and
this is where we can really under.

Yeah.

And we can really understand
what what's on people's minds.

So we also do open coffee, but it
serves slightly different purpose.

Michal: Yeah.

W we do an event sort of like that,
but we just call that breakfast at

yolk or where we get a local cafe
to sort of cater breakfast for us.

And there's no agenda.

There's just food on the table and
people come and they talk about

whatever they want to talk about.

Well, also at eight it's a little bit
later because I know our members aren't

going to come at eight or at seven.

So that starts like at 9, 9 30.

Romeo: Cool.

So thanks a lot that, yeah,
this was a great discussion.

We had a lot of learnings about grand
parade about you about, you know,

this whole organizational culture
and how we can grow as individuals.

How can people find you?

Daria: I'm on Facebook?

I'm on LinkedIn.

Romeo: So LinkedIn you're mainly,
yes, we will put also the link.

Thanks a lot again.

Oh, thank

Michal: you guys.

Romeo: Hey, we house.

So what did you learn today from diarrhea?

Michal: Daddy is so full of
life and full of personality.

I really enjoyed listening to her,
share her insight and her stories.

One of the memorable things to
me you know, me being from yolk

workspace and community, I focused in
on whenever she would talk about the

office and how she sort of saw the.

Maybe the mission of an
office change over time.

She mentioned that currently about 20%
of her employees are using the office.

And another memorable thing was, she's
mentioned that a few people have left a

grand parade on account of the fact that
not enough people are using the office.

And I guess they're, they
kind of feel lonely there.

So for me, those points
were really memorable.

What about you?

Romeo: For me?

It was the experience that Tanya had
of, she moved from Electrolux, right?

Like she wanted to go to.

Local company, smaller company,
when she can have an impact.

And while she was having
her notice period.

And in the meantime the company was
acquired by this bigger British company.

So that was funny for me because it shows
actually and her stories and personality,

how important it is to be agile and.

To understand that.

Okay.

May be when you have the interview,
when you are having ha having the

actual discussions, your JD is
presented in a way your job description,

but when you join, it's totally
different organizations, right?

So I think that's very interesting
and also her stories of how to

actually join such a organization,
how to join such role.

These are all insights that anyone
out there can, can learn from.

So guys thanks a lot for listening.

If you like it, give us a
review and enjoy the next show.

Thanks a lot.

Michal: Take care.

Thank you for listening.

Gossip was recorded at local
workspace and community.

Romeo: If you enjoyed listening,
please give us a share

Michal: or review on apple podcasts
or wherever you listen to us.

See you next

Romeo: time.